It's just been a year, but one of a kind... *smile*

That's awesome sounds like you've had a good first year! You've been an awesome contributor to the forums as well, I'm a bit spotty, I used to be here on a more regular basis when i first started writing, but since then I went back to school and changed work schedules so I'm not here as consistently as I used to be! I've been writing since October 2011, so a little past 7 years and I've written my fair share to get to the good ones I have now! Great to hear you're enjoying it, it's really rewarding being able to make a difference for the good and be a light of hope and inspiration for someone else in need of a friend! I enjoy reading your posts, keep it coming!

Hi everyone, I have read the forum a lot, even though I was new, as anonymous, I read tons of posts, including posts from years ago.
Kirsten, your testimony is quite interesting. I tend to pay attention when you respond to the topics, I find a fairly rational person in my thoughts.

I have an issue and would like to do this to not open a new topic. Is there any way to send a message here within the forum to another forum member? I searched everywhere and did not find it.

Kirsten, although you and I have had our differences, I do appreciate the perspective you bring! Happy New Year and may this year solidify your friendships even more :)

Hi Amandah,

welcome and nice to see you, too. As for your question: Unhappy to say there is no private message option on here any more. Hope you nonetheless find a way to address what you wish to talk about confidentially.

This "fairly rational" (thanks for the flowers) person can be reached at  g e s p e n s t e r k n u d d e l n  @ g m x . d e (minus the spaces). Should you not have meant myself, I can't lend a hand, but wish you the best of luck anyway.

@Shadey: Thanks.

@ IL PPP : Differences are normal, as ppl aren't always alike. But since I don't have to convince you or anyone else, I can usually live pretty well with agreeing to differ. Though sometimes I really don't get what you're up to- but that's none of my business, either. Therefore: Differences celebrated, no offense meant, no harm done.

Kirsten, thank you for the post ! I'm really new to this (first wrote in August and got my first reply end of Sept.) and, when I started, I didn't know what I would get out of it to be honest. It was mostly a desire to understand the men that got my attention, the hope to be a positive influence and a bit of loneliness. Also, there's the fact that I would like to teach part time in prison at some point in my life.

I didn't expect it would be so rewarding however and I'm really looking forward to seeing how my penpalships will develop in the future. It is also very interesting to see how the written "conversations" I have with my penpals are taking a specific direction depending on the person.

Glad you're all enjoying it too and that I've had the opportunity to "meet" you and exchange opinions on this topic. 

Isn't it so rewarding Thucy??? It's like, from the first letter you're just smacked with a whole different type of appreciation for the little things. It really, really helps shape one's perspective.

IL_PPP, It is ! I used to write a LOT of letters back in 1999-2003, then people progressively stopped and even I moved to e-mail. Sure, e-mail is practical, but the pleasure I get from finding a letter in my mailbox and not just bills is immense. 

And it changed how I see things ; realised I'm free to go where I please, can decide what I cook, when I do it... But also, for me, it's a more mature type of communication. The letters I used to write back then were just silly and superficial gossip, but with these guys, we have more serious conversation about a lot of things and it's very pleasurable. I'm really looking forward to getting to know them better and knowing more about them (and hopefully being a positive influence on them). 

And there are the little details too. One of them always draws my initials in a calligraphic way on the address part of the enveloppe and he tries a different letter pattern each time. I love it !

Thucy, it surely can be very rewarding. I always found (and find) trust to be one of the greatest gifts human beings can givre to one another. And the more reserved, more quiet or more hurt someone is, the more it means (to me), to be able to connect with another person's humaneness.(sp?)

Why being a short-termer makes things easier for you?

Simply because I wasn't fully sure whether it would be sth. for me. I didn't/don't like the thought of starting things & not continue doing them. So, a short-termer was okay for a start, because giving a commitment of writing for a year or so was easy, but to give it who has 10 + years to go or life or anything like that and then discovering: "Oops, it's not the right thing for me to do, I can't handle this." would've been hard and unfair (in my opinion).

Though by now, I do have one guy who literally has decades to go from here. But he wouldn't have been a starter for me. 

This thread brought a smile to my face. Thanks so much for sharing! I also always pay extra attention when you're replying to a topic, you bring a lot of nuance and depth to discussions. I only started writing recently, but hearing about your experiences makes me feel very motivated to keep doing this for the long haul. Happy one year!

Hi sparrow,

thanks for your kind words & the the wishes. I hope you're gonna have lots of smiles & funny & wondrous (sp?) moments. For me, it has been a very enriching experience and I wish you the same wholeheartedly.

Happy writing!

Time for a review, I guess... been one and a half years of writing now.

The guy whom I got my first reply from and have written with ever since, will be released on parole later this month and it just makes me smile.

It was a good choice to pick him to write and it was a good thing ever since. We've exchanged private email addresses and I guess, we'll just see how it goes.

I'm pretty optimistic that we are goin' to stay in contact, but I don't feel like wanting to push him or to put any pressure into it.

What will happen, will happen. And whatever this may be, I'll never regret the conversations we had.

My very infrequent writer hasn't replied to my last letter for about 4 months or so, no, 5 almost, it's July already, so, I guess, one could say, it just faded off. But I'm not sad about it. It was okay and should he turn up again, I'd give him a reply anytime. It just didn't get too deep or too regular. No hard feelings.

My quiet Texan friend (the one reminding me of the half wild kitten when we started writing) is writing his usual short, but friendly letters. It is, well, not casual, no, it's just... he isn't a person of many words, I guess. More or less talking about daily life stuff, respecting each other, but not getting too involved with each other. I think we're both a little reserved, with him I notice that my words aren't just pouring out on paper, it's far more what to say and how. There's always a certain kind of seriousness, or rather the lightheartedness I experienced with others is missing. But that's okay, too.   

Then I've had another pretty quiet one I nonetheless got into conflict with. Basically over a subject (or rather, on how to deal with it) that has evoked heated and controversial discussions on here itself. We took a break from writing to one another for a while, started writing again, but honestly, I fear we might lose this battle. There are a few things in life (not too many for me, but a few) where viewpoints which are too different can cause problems. Apparently, this is one.Makes me sad, but yeah, sometimes you got to face the truth - and sometimes this means to say there are things you're unable to accept. (And I'm NOT talking about his crime here, I'm talking about some statements he made. Obviously he thought I'd think the same way, but I don't. And in that case, this is disturbing to me because we really got along well at first - and apart from this subject).

And then the "little one", (he's by far the youngest, that's why) who has a hard time accepting a boundary I set. I realize he had other hopes and I don't say anything against dreaming when locked up for long and alone and lonely, but nonetheless, the difference between friendship and romance should be clear now. If not, then yeah, I'd have to cut contact, I suppose.

That's the state of the art and I'm musing on whether or not to write to another one. (And to whom, if so...). 

@Kirsten 

Oh I’m so glad you had such a positive experience with your first guy! I hope parole works out for him and that he never ends up in prison/jail again. I also love that you have such realistic expectations with everything and that you’re not putting pressure on him to keep writing! Lord knows he’ll have a tonne on his plate to deal with, but I wish him all the luck in the world! I’m sure he really appreciated you being in his life whilst he was locked up :).

I had a question though, about your Texan pen pal. I hope this doesn’t come across as rude, but do you feel frustrated that he’s not very forthcoming in his writing? That’s the words don’t pour out as much as it does as with maybe your other pals? I know you said that you’re both reserved people, but do you think there’s such a thing as being too reserved that it hinders a real bond/connection from being made? 

While I’m at it, do you feel that you experience different types of connections with your pals? I feel that I do, and I feel kind of guilty about it!  Not sure how to get over that. 

In regards to your younger pen pal, sad to say, but if he can’t respect boundaries (especially ones that I’ve had to state multiple times over) then I would personally cut contact. I had a situation like that recently and my pen pal was super respectful and I’d say it’s actually brought us even closer and he’s been so much more honest and raw with me, which I’ve really loved! Good luck with that situation! 

I’d say I’ve had a great 6 months so far and i can’t for another year to pass just to see where I’ll be with my pals! Thank you for the update and I hope everything works out and if you ever get another pen pal, that he turns out to be everything you want! 

Cleo x

@Kirsten how have you in the past decided upon which inmates to write to?

The lady I write with in Texas..her profile just resonated with me..we have such good laughs with letters, she is very funny despite the bleak situation she is in

It's amazing how words can leap off a page and really touch us. What my husband wrote and well his picture got my attention. My other pen-pals spoke to me in different ways. One that I was drawn to, I felt such a motherly connection to this kid. I say kid, he's in his 20's close enough. 

Is the " kid" a lifer too?

Yes, he's a LWOP. He's trying to appeal his case, but truth be told he doesn't have a chance. He refuses to take his meds, but the night of the crime he admitted and explained what he did to 5 separate police officers and detectives, that were on the scene. 

Its so wrong isn t it. The stitching up that actually goes on in the US

Hi Cleo,

Yes, that experience with the first one was really a good one. I learned a lot from him and I guess he did from me as well. Of course, he'll have lots of things to do, but from what I observe, he's relatively well prepared. He's been in a reentry center for quite a while, took programmes, classes, courses, did have a job, learned a few life skills and did a lot of things to get it done. Of course, you can never say never, but he took any chance he got, so I really hope for the best. 

As for writing or not, he himself brought it up and said he doesn't want to lose contact and is eager to hear my accent one time. (We never spoke on the phone so far). Then he gave me his private email and said he'll hit me up if I drop him a line. So far, as long as I know him, he always did what he said he'd do, so we'll see. I know there aren't guarantees on anything, but he never gave me any reason not to trust him. Yeah, I'm also glad for the exchange we had so far and while he's not an angel, (never claimed to be), to me he's living proof writing to a prisoner can be an enriching and rewarding thing to do because you might find a companion.

You don't come across as being rude, why should an honest, direct question, asked out of genuine interest, be considered rude? Frustrated is not the word I'd use, no. I feel a bit sad, perhaps. You know, like... I don't know how to phrase it... Have you ever come across someone where you wanted to move closer and could not? That's how it feels.

Being careful is okay, but there's a certain invisible stop sign. I can't explain it, (as I said, it's invisible), but it's there. He was very much afraid in the beginning he might say sth. which would cause me to not write back. He never did, and he never (really absolutely never ever) gave me even the slightest thought of not wanting to write back, but he has some serious layers of feelings of guilt and shame. And I guess, that's what's blocking him. He grew up with a very hard and strict good/bad, right/wrong, etc, etc., but that didn't prevent the things that landed him in prison. And I think he, well, judges himself in a very condamning way. Not to say he did good things to land in prison (he did not), but as long as he's judging himself so hard, I doubt he can really do better. 

And I can't seem to get through to that core of self refusal. If I had only one thing to tell him, it'd be: "Forgive yourself. Forgive yourself and try to have a little compassion for the guy you were and the man you're now." Hm... Maybe I should really write these two lines to him in my next letter... perhaps I should really just say exactly that when the next "I hope you don't stop writing to a screw-up like me" comes.

I guess, it's fear, Cleo. Fear that hinders both of uds from making a real connection. Different fears perhaps on each side, but fear nonetheless. 

And yes, I do feel different types of connections with my penpals. But this isn't anything I feel guilty about, bc I think this is normal.

I mean... I feel different types and depths of connection with ppl on the outside as well, it's not always the same with everyone, since we're all individuals. Why should that be different with them? Just because they're inmates? Why?

Why not simply allowing yourself to feel different feelings at different times towards different ppl? If it wasn't different, why would anyone start it? It would be known beforehand then, seen one, know all. But we all know this isn't true. ;-)

I'm very happy for you that the situation worked out so well with your pp. Encouraging for me to read this. Thanks for that!

@Northern: How did I go about picking a pp so far?

Well, I just read the ads and if an ad interested me, I usually camme back to it, reading it several times on different days. I then did some research to decide if I could live with the crime checked the "religion" field they gave (no, I'm not an overly religious person, I just can't get along well with "give your life to God" born again Christian types of missionaries. So it's mostly spiritual or non-denominational, this just works best for me.

Yeah, and then I write the letter (or the initial WAP email, I did both so far). The problem isn't to find anyone, the thing is, I've probably come across 13 or 14 profiles over the last 18 months (apart from those I've already written to) which positively, in one way or another, stood out of the mass of ads for me. 

So I'd have to check whom of those to write to (i.e. Are they in a state I already write to or not? Are some of them on the "needs mail" list or not? etc.,etc. Maybe some just took their profile down in the meantime or updated it or...)  So, I'd just have to "rank" them in a way.
   

Today I just smile! The pp who didn't get back to me since I answered his last letter in Feb, did write again and today I had it in the mail. It's a nice, beautiful letter and as soon as I saw the handwriting on the envelope I knew it was him. A nice letter to get back to... with some ppl it just isn't as regular, but when we correspond, it's nice. So maybe I'll just accept it that way- you don't want thewind to be steady, would you?

I guess, by accepting it the way it is (with these long spaces in between), it just might be nice. Irregular, but kind.

Oh and my paroled friend and I chat and email a little here and there. Nice, too.

That’s great to hear! And it’s so good to hear that your pal on the outside is still keeping contact. He’s obviously a man of his word. I hope everything works out for him! 

Kirsten, what you wrote about the guy in which you have too different viewpoints on how to handle an issue, I have a similar experience. I arrived at a similar conclusion, I corresponded with a guy from November 2012-April 2017, so basically 4 and a half years, other than this issue we got along very well and we had a similar disconnect to you and this guy... long story short, I decided after sitting on it for a period of time I couldn't move past the difference and I wrote him a goodbye letter, because after that amount of time I wanted to say something so at least he has closure, and out of respect for the time he and I shared. I still think about him around his birthday, but given the issue and what it represented to me I know I can't see him the same way again, as good of a friend as he was otherwise I just couldn't move past it. This was my saddest experience as a penpal, and I hope he has found someone to write to since then. Hopefully you don't suffer the same fate, but I literally could not do it anymore. Just thought I'd share since what you say reminds me so much of him and that experience we had.

He is, Cleo. So far, he never gave me any reason to doubt it, so, I'm just going to believe it.

ST4s: Where did you learn German so well, man? Been overseas here? Ah, no, you mentioned once having family from Bavaria, didn't you? Though many Germans wouldn't necessarily say Bavarians are the common Germans - and vice versa. ;-) Yeah we're melting here. Being so close to the river, we here lie like in a kettle and it's REALLY sultry. Yesterday and the day before there have been the highest temperatures ever since there were measurements. 41,2 °C in a town an hour from here. Today it's about 2 degrees lower, but, to be honest, you don't really notice it. It's damn hot! I sweat the water out the minute I pour it in.

@Shadey: I hear you on that one and I guess, I know what you mean. Sometimes there are points of no return and when those are reached, things are over.

On the other hand (always a but and another side to things) I think many ppl give up too soon. Sometimes you just need to take your time and give time to the other as well, take a break and see how things unfold. Growth is seldom happening fast and thios goes as well for physical growth as for outgrowing habits. 

I tend to be patient (more with others than myself) and I think patience is an underestimated and undercultivated virtue. Not everything is available everywhere all the time. Not everything cann happen at all times. But when the right moment is there, things can unfold that were thought of as impossible before. So I try to be clear and firm in my opinion, but flexible in my mind, patient in my heart and wait to see what happens. 

ST4s: I can picture this- vividly. :-) To top it all, the name for the drink is a regional one. I know about three different ones, depending on what part of Germany you are in. But if you take the Southern one (used like in Hesse, Bavaria & Baden-Wurttemberg) and you skip the last letter, it really souunds like noodles, which, to make matters worse, are also most common in the Southern part of the country. ;-)

Oh, yeah. I guess, you all had a good laugh! Made me have one, too. I was born & raised there, but have been in Northrhine-Westphalia since 1997. Here they call it "Diesel". The drink, not the noodles.

Have a nice day! And find yourself a reason to smile. :-) 

Hm... thought I'd give you all an update, though it might not be a particularly nice one today. You know what? I sent my first letters in January 2018 and now we have October 2019 and it seems I'm in a dry phase at the moment. I'm not at all talking about quitting, what I mean is much more about yeah... some kind of a drought. Seems like letter writing is going through phases and right now, "honeymoon" is over for me. Let me explain it. Maybe writing it down will make it clearer to myself as well.

My first penpal got paroled in July. He's doing well, we're still in contact, loosely, but yes. He's got a life, he's living it and I'm more of a bystander now. But that's ok, I didn't expect anything else and when we talk is just as easy as it has ever been. Just less than before.

Penpal #2 is the one with the longest sentence (earliest release date 2048). He got transferred from a max to a medium security facility, which is fine. But, in his new facility, well, there are quite a few sex offenders being housed, which is understandable, because they offer a special treatment programme for sex offenders there. My penpal is none (a sex offender I mean), but he has very clear and very hard viewpoints about them. We clashed a bit over that because he made a very harsh comment that kind of freaked me, because, sorry, his own case also involved a child (getting hit by a bullet in a gang fight and while the bullet wasn't intentionally meant for the kid, who survived, it nonetheless hit and hurt the kid). So we got into some kind of conflict over this topic. It led to a break in our communication, which had been stable and quite open before. We both hit the "pause" button before saying too much, because neither of us wanted the other to get really hurt. We'd always been respectful and kind of,. well... careful with each other. We resumed writing, but it's not the old ways. Much less frequent, much more reserved. This goes for both of us.

My Tx pp (penpal # 3) has always been quiet, he's not a man of many words or of easily expressing feelings. But we had that kind of slowly, but surely and steady type of communication. Short letters, but nice and kind. Now he got his parole denied in May and I haven't heard from him since. I did write in, several times, but it is like he's gone. I realize he probably fell into some kind of depression, or rather his depression got worse than before (he always dealt with it, I don't know him any different, it was just varying in how hard it hit him). It's like he's broken down, he's totally off and I can't seem to reach him. I think he gets those letters (I don't get them back at least), but to no avail.

My PA pp has connectnetwork now (haha) and asked me to email (wish I could). He had been an irregular writer, depending on whether he was on drugs (then he did usually not write, or if, his letters were no-brainers) or not (then I get thoughtful, regular, quite well-written and quite long letters). By now he seems to be a lot more stable and better off than when we started writing, but I realize that can change easily. Nonetheless, I just put a letter for him into the mail today and I hope he'll continue thriving. 

And #5 my spontaneous, bipolar AZ rollercoaster with the great sense of humor ( I rarely met someone in my life at all who can make me laugh so easily, humorwise we're 100% on the same wavelength, bc he said I do it,too). When he's up, he tends to be a wee bit over enthusiastic (like wanting to relocate and live with me and such things) when he's down he's like "Well, nobody loves me, you don't love me, the world doesn't love me and I don't love myself, either." Always a bit too strong, either rosecoloured or deep deep black glasses. I realize that's the illness, but hey, sometimes it really can get on my nerves, because my days aren't always sugar and spice, either.

Nonetheless do I love him (as a person, not in a romantical sense), he's just close to my heart, as much as he can get on my nerves sometimes. 

And then I wrote someone two months ago and didn't hear back, so I guess that won't be a new penpal. Which is a bit of a pity, I liked the ad, but okay.

That's how it is with me and writing to inmates right now. Any comments are welcome and I hope you realize I don't want to discourage anyone, I kind of just needed to write this down for myself.

Thank you, ST4s, kind as ever. You know you're making a big difference, too. :-)

It's been two years now, well almost. Next weekend it'll be two years.

Hm... what do I think about it now/ experience right now? Let me have a look (writing clears things for me, always)

My very first penpal is on parole (as you know from this thread) and he keeps himself out of trouble. Working a lot, but yeah, he's adjusting well. Our contact is loose, but not lost. No deep "friends for life" connection, but ppl who remember each other's birthday and say "hi2 on holidays, too. Benevolent acquaintances.

Penpal # 2 (the one I had a conflict on how to deal with sex offenders) I didn't hear from him other than saying thanks when he had received my letter for his birthday. That has been a while, so I guess, it's done.

TX (pp #3):  I haven't heard any word in ages and while I didn't stop writing for I knew about his parole being denied and that he formerly dealt with depression, I'm now getting to a point where I just think about moving on and leave it for good.

PA (pp #4): Irregularly, as ever, but nice. We both congratulated each other for our bds (we're 2 years and 2 days apart) and I think our letters may have crossed paths while waiting to be delivered to each other.

AZ (pp #5): That's a bit hard, really. I feel he's idealizing me and he'd love us to be a MWI couple. While I love him as a person, I'm not interested in romance and this might cause our correspondence to break as I'm unsure as to what else (apart from what I told him already) to say to make it clear. Maybe the clear cut would be the only thing he really gets, but I'm usually not someone for hard measures- especially not when I do like someone. But liking ain't loving and this is a difference I can't seem to convey.

What else? Oh yeah...

I wrote someone by the end of September, but didn't hear back, so I'm not sure if I will.

Then I wrote to a transgender this month (never did before, but I do know someone who made the male to female transition, so the subject isn't completely foreign), of course I didn't hear back yet. I mean, the season and all...

And... I broke my own rule today. I never expected myself to do this, but... this evening I composed my very first letter to an inmate who is on DR in San Quentin. I really never planned this (and I'm still a bit afraid of the new territory), but when I read his ad it was one I came back to again and again - and you all know that feeling. So i finally gave in and wrote. We'll see what happens.

Hope you're all well and enjoy a happy writing!

Kirsten 

Kirsten, they really do seem to be lucky people to have friendships with you. I'm sorry the "honeymoon" stage is over for you and you've hit some rough weather on your journey but I'm sure blue skies await! Maybe after the holiday season is all done and dusted you'll hear back from your potential new pals. And I just wrote a response saying our boundaries change, and that's okay, but communication of those is crucial. If you keep going back to the ad, it might be for good reason. 
Hoping your pals send you some good letters and all the best for those potential new friends! 

Wishing you the best with the new pen pals you'll (hopefully) be gaining! Keep us posted :) x

@Cleo: Will do so, of course. Happy 2020 to you, yours and your penpals.

@Violet: I'm not anyone special. Or if I am, I'm just as special as everyone else in his/her own way. 

So, I do what I can to be a good friend to the best of my abilities. I sure you do the same for your friends in real life or on pen and paper.

I just used this thread to take a look back at how it started and where it went from there. From time to time I find it pretty valuable to re-evaluate things, see what needs to be kept and what didn't work.

This end of the year time seems to be perfect for doing this.

All the best to you and yours in 2020.

Kirsten

Today it got the first letter in AGES. In the meantime I suspected the mailman ate them or something like that...

I got a letter from San Quentin, so the one on DR got back to me. Nice letter, I just sat down for the last hour and a half and wrote back. Drop in into the mail tomorrow.

No word from anyone else at all, except my parolee.But i'm happy about the new penpal, will see how that goes. :-)

Happy writing, everyone,

Kirsten

Normally, I should change the title of this thread, as of course it's been more than a year now, it's two years and 4 months.

But circumstances given as they are on the forums right now, I dig it out and bump it, rather than making a new thread or put this into an existing one.

I do this for several reasons:

1) I want to make clear to others that writing to inmates is a process, not a monolith block.

2) I want to express that even while I enjoy doing it, I also had phases that felt dry, like being in a desert without rain/water. Make no mistakes, I had evenings when I thought: "I'll never write another letter to an inmate or post on the forum.

3) I had (and have still, right at the moment) to make decisions that hurt. I have had to write a letter that I wrote, torned up, rephrased, wrote again,tore up again, rephrased again, etc., all because of not being sure how to say what I felt I needed to say as gently as possible, while being clear at the same time. That was a goodbye letter to a former pp of mine.

4) Just yesterday I received a letter I waited for in weeks and there was a question or a request (both) in it that made me feel at a loss for words. Other than: "What am I going to do about this?!?" I don't have much more in m<y mind. It's a delicate topic and a pretty personal one and I fear I might get involved in stuff that's way beyond anything I ever thought about when it came to being a penpal. For one, it's a proof of trust (no one would tell or ask that to/from a person s/he didn't trust, on the other hand I'm asking myself what I put myself into if I don't ignore or decline that question/request. It's not anything illegal, it's not being asked for $, it's just more about mediating between my pp and a family member of his. The problem is I don't know that family member at all and I just heard one side of the story of what happened. And I don't see right now how I could help, well, re-build or re-establish communication between my pp and that family member. On the other hand I can understand how important that re-communicating would be for my penpal. But what should I do? Check in on that person and say: "Hey, sorry, I'm xyz, so-and-so's penpal and he just told me how he feels about having lost contact with you and he'd really love to talk with you again."? Not really, I mean, who am I to do sth.like that?

Sometimes being a penpal is complicated. But I still think, for me, it's worth doing it. Even if it sometimes feels helpless, like not knowing what to do or say at all.    

Just so that nobody thinks it would always be easy. It's not. But it doesn't help newbies to give it a try by telling every difficukty, w/o seeing the good that coes from it, too.

*difficulty*

*comes from it, too.

It's getting late here, I can type properly any more, sorry
 

*Can't* type properly anymore.. oh, my, didn't I just say that? *lol* Here's the proof.

Hey Kirsten,

it's the middle path that should be advertised here. Not the rose-tinted everything will just be an awesome experience, but also not scaring newbies right from the get go. The problem in this forum is from my perspective that too many here just had luck with their pp and make that the bar for their advices here. But then you get posts here where people are crying because they faced someone they shouldn't face, a scammer, someone who will trigger you, someone you cannot deal with etc. And then you wonder "Wait, wasn't this supposed to be a fun experience?". All of that can be avoided if they just prepare beforehand. It's the bullshit idea of just writing inmates without getting to know for what they are actually in. As an analogy it's the same as getting your car fixed by a stranger, well good luck then. If you write with prisoners it's more likely that you come across people who scam, lie, act not normal, are weird, but that makes the gems you may find way more gemmy (?I hope that's a word!!!). 

The other things you have said, well, gut gebrüllt Löwe (well roared lion).

As for your 4), if you feel you can't do this, don't do it. Just make yourself aware why you don't wanna do this, because I think you wouldn't ask if you already know the reason why you don't wanna do it. If you just need a tip that pushes you to do it, then do it. We're here. 

But I think the problem here is more that not many are telling any difficulty, let alone every difficulty. On the contrary—many tend towards laying out every positive, and when they are not, they tend towards smoothing over the difficulties (aside from those quick to yell "Scam!" at the first sign of emotional hurt or unmet expectations). They are dismissing them, saying, effectively, "Ah, well, 'you win some, you lose some.' Just hop right back in and choose someone else" (and mind that there is nothing necessarily wrong with that, only it does skim over the learning experience that could be had). Look at, for instance, the thread you earlier participated in, Kirsten, about what to do if things go south. I find this serves a very good, recent example of this all. I look toward the response that that thread received and would have to ask, how many effective solutions were outlaid in that thread? How many concrete pointers? How many messages that were not, effectively, don't worry yourself too much?

Joker is right in part, it is the middle ground which is preferred, because neither extreme (all negative, all positive) is advantageous.

"If you write with prisoners it's more likely that you come across people who scam, lie, act not normal, are weird, but that makes the gems you may find way more gemmy (?I hope that's a word!!!)."

On the one hand, I disagree with this. Because even those you would find beyond the wall and would seek to call 'gem' are going to have those faults befitting a person behind bars, trying to survive behind bars (such as you have laid out - 'who scam, lie, act not normal, are weird'). I feel one should acknowledge the reality that 'If you write prisoners, do expect they are going to be like this or at least capable of this' in order to put it into context, not in order to use that to create an unrealistic standard or an unrealistic expectation. Gems aren't behind that wall, people are. Flawed people. And people (especially those incarcerated) aren't so much gems. You expect them to be, you set yourself up for disappointment out the gate. Or so I feel.

Since the topic seems to have moved here, I'll give my two cents as a self-proclaimed wearer of those rose-tinted glasses.
As with all of my posts to this forum, these are my words and my experiences of which I am the best qualified to speak about. 
 

It's perfectly okay for anyone to feel anyway they want about this gig, and all other gigs in their lives. I encourage everyone to explore all those feelings and ponder (for a short while) on why they are feeling a particular way about a particular subject. Kirsten can feel how she likes about writing to inmates, as can ST4's, Jujay and Joker. They're all entitled to their opinions and should feel free to express those here on the forum. No one should be telling anyone else what they shouldn't and shouldn't post about. 
As ST4's said, gatekeeping other people's experiences doesn't create a welcoming, open place for discussion. It creates an environment where people might feel like they have to justify themselves and their experiences when that shouldn't be necessary. I'd have to say that the main vibe I get from your posts recently @Bread with crust is bitterness. That's my view, as an outsider, just reading what you've written down. I don't know your life and am not going to assume anything about it (though I can if you've like me to) but spreading that around isn't going to do you or anyone else any good. 
 

The thing that I like so much about the forum is that it is a melting pot of people from all over the globe who have one thing in common - writing to inmates. I like the diversity whereby one question is asked and many different answers are given. I don't come here to get the "middle of the road" answer all the time - what would the point be if you all gave the same advice or opinion? It's the differences in our experiences that are otfen the points for learning. And that's what this process and life as a whole is about. 
If you don't see the value in people sharing different experiences, and each of those being just as valid as each other then you still have a lot to learn. 
 

I have learnt the hard way about trying to impose my opinions onto other people, and it never ends well. So for me, when I decide to write a post with advice or an opinion, it's not because I'm trying to be "right" or sway that person to see from my view. It's to put another perspective on the situation, and nothing more. Like this post, is just another perspective from someone with different experiences to your own. I'm not going to be upset if you disagree, nor will I be pleased if you agree. It's just out there as another point of view. 
 

It seems to me like you're trying to protect people new to writing to inmates from being disappointed if it doesn't go as well as someone else said it did for them. The sentiment is nice, but what none of us here can change for newbies is their expectations. 
That's the thing about expectations, is they are born of fantasy by our minds and then our minds hold us hostage to them. The best way to not be disappointed? Have no expectations. It's hard and it doesn't come easily to most people to get rid of preconceived notions, but it makes dealing with every situation in your life a lot easier if you can practice it. My point is, it's not anyone's responsibility on these forums to live up to anyone else's expections. Nor is it anyone's responsibility to lower expectations so people don't feel disappointed. That lies solely with whoever is here reading the forums, asking for advice or wanting somse other opinions from people who have experiences that might be useful. My words are put out on the forum for others to make their own judgements and sift through for what they find useful or not. That's how I use the forums. But like I said, we're all different and use these forums differently. And that's okay. 
Naivity is okay, brutal honesty is okay, rose-tinted glasses are okay, being cautious is okay, taking risks is okay - in the end you learn best from mistakes, not successes and everyone has to start somewhere. 
 

My last point I would like to make is these posts on which you make assumptions about the writers, are glimpses, tiny bits of that persons life and experience. If we all tried to put our entire experiences into the posts, there would be pages and pages just for one persons post. For me, I have been writing to inmates for 13 years on and off, I don't expect I could compress all of that into anything less than a medium sized novel. So I give what I think will help, in the shortest amount of words possible to accurately depict what I'm trying to say. And then once it's out there, it's up to the readers to do with that what they wish. There's a lot more to each person that writes posts here than what we read in a single post. Maybe you would do well to remember that next time you read something that you disagree with, or choose to question someone about what they wrote. 
 

"You are free to be what feels right for you" - Chris Ferreiras

I... literally have no idea what you're even talking about (I'm lost on where I have even been bitter). I meant to put a disclaimer that these were just my thoughts, because I know people on here sure are quick to take things personal and feel attacked over nothing. Kirsten shared these thoughts (they are directly related to what I shared in the other thread, I opened that discussion), so I had thoughts in turn. I agree with Joker. How is anything being "gatekept"? Yes, do what you want, say what you want, give the advice you want, that doesn't change what I think and that doesn't change what is the trend. You ask me, I still say there's far too much whitewashing on here. This isn't always sunshine and rainbows and "AWESOME" "JUST AWESOME."

But yeah, that's really all I have to say. You're right. People can have different experiences. I don't know that I ever spoke against that at all...

That's an interesting perspective to read, Violet.  I like that you said everyone uses the forums differently.

I've found hostility and bitterness, be it on the internet or in person, (I'm not singling out anyone on the forum with this btw, it's meant in general) is a loop.  
 

A person is hostile to others, others are hostile back.  I could try to analyze it, like oh that person just wants attention, oh that person has emotional issues, maybe they have poor social skills, maybe they get stuck on things and can't get over that type of circular thinking, but honestly who knows and I agree no one really knows what someone else is going through.  I had a PP who was going through serious anger issues for awhile very similar to that, but he decided to just take a break from things for awhile and work on his mental health so he could have healthier relationships and communication with others, and good for him.  That takes guts to want to do better and get help if needed.
 

In person, we don't have the same ability to mute people, but we can certainly choose how we react and the only thing anyone can do is simply not care or sometimes my friends and I joke about it, if someone is acting all bent out of shape over other people's business.

As far as the label naive goes, on another post when we were discussing the possible dangers of the situation I was speaking of, the definition of it is "a person showing lack of experience and innocence." So okay, that's fair enough, never been put in that type of danger, or could even begin to understand certain impulses, and maybe people gathered that about me with my posts, but I personally don't take offense.  While I have no tragic story to deal with, will I one day?  I don't know.  I highly doubt it, but I'm not a pessimist who shakes her head and always has a gloom and doom outlook.  That type of attitude can hold people back a lot in life.  But realizing maybe there are certain things people have dealt with while pen pal'ing or in their personal life that I have not helps me protect myself a little more emotionally and say "oh yeah my pen pals have some issues, so gotta deal with that."  Doesn't mean I'll quit or be frightened of them, ditch them, or treat them like any less of a person.  If people need to carry things any further about it, that's their problem, not mine, but I only really truly fully read and reply to a few people's comments on here anyway, depending if I've directly asked a question, am interested in a thread, or if I know that person to be an interesting and intelligent commentator.

I take what is helpful and leave the rest for someone else if they need it.

Hi everyone

Woah, that's a lot that's been posted. I see quite a few points in here, including some that are likely to breed further misunderstandings.

I'll do the best I can to refer to things, trying to build bridges and show what I mean when I say I perceive some misunderstandings here. But please, bear with me, I'll need time to type and, in some cases, time to try to find the right words, I mean,the exact ones, those that can hopefully convey what I want to say. Maybe I'm gonna need two posts, I don't know, but I wanna try and see if I can build a bridge and enhance a communication where everyone can be recognized.

Okay, I'll go chronologically (easiest way to not overlook anything).

@ Joker:

Hi Joker,   

hm, I don't think of myself as advertising writing to inmates, nor do I think the forums do. For me, the forums are a platform to share info and stories with ppl who do the same thing as I do: writing to inmates. I'm not going anywhere and point out the forums or the website to anyone (which would be advertising, wouldn't it?)

I think those who are interested will google the right words & find the site and then I'm willing to answer questions, to listen and to build connections with ppl. (That doesn't only go for inmates, but for ppl who write or read here as well. Which is a difference: I'm not selling a product or an experience, not claiming anyone should have or make the same experience.

[QUOTE]The problem in this forum is from my perspective that too many here just had luck with their pp and make that the bar for their advices here.[/QUOTE]

From my perspective, there's much less "luck of the draw" involved than it may seem. Not no luck, but little. Because for me, the main point isn't even who you choose, but how you go about building up a connection.  And while this is simple, but not easy, it has little to do with luck, but much with communication. And here's where difficulties start, both with pps and in the forums. I'll show you what I mean with the example of your own statements. What you make of this, will be completely up to you.

[QUOTE] All of that can be avoided if they just prepare beforehand.[/QUOTE]

If you go at it from a strictly logical point of view, yes. Like writing a computer programme or constructing stuff like an engineer. If life was logical and humans were, too, you'd be right. 

The thing is, life isn't strictly logical and humans aren't, either. No binary 0/1 code available. Preparing for an experience is a form of trying to control it.Trying to control what you're going to find, erasing the unwanted. That's not how it works, that's not how life is, how ppl are. You can gather information, you can build criteria, but you'll never know how you react or how anyone else will until you're IN it. 

True, one can draw boundaries, build criteria, choose carefully according to them, but there's a thumb rule in communication: connection first, then content. BEFORE you share any factual info whatsoever, make sure you're on the same page wirth the one you're communicating with. And this is where most ppl who plan a lot ahead tend to fail. 

They have a lot to say, but it will be left unheard, though theysay it and mean well, because they don't connect with the audience first. You give factual correct answers, you want to protect ppl from getting hurt, but ppl will perceive you as tactless, because you don't build an emotional connection with them first. You can tell ppl almost anything, IF (and that's key) they trust you first. Therefore: connection first, then content. If you do it the other way around, you're gonna fail having a fulfilling communication with most. This is not to make reproaches, but just to illustrate why (imo) you're having a hard time find penpals and a hard start on the forums. What you do with that info, is your own choice.

[QUOTE]And then you wonder "Wait, wasn't this supposed to be a fun experience?"[/QUOTE]

While I do agree that writing to inmates certainly should not be a chore, I cringe a bit at the "fun experience". Believe it or not, having fun was not on my list when I considered writing to prisoners. I'm not allergic ro humor ( really not) ;-), but I knew enough to be certain that circumstances weren't funny in prisons and I personally avoid the "just someone to pass my time" ads, but that's just me. I'm not here to entertain ppl nor to be entertained. I 'm here to build connection. And while I smile and laugh a lot ( especially with my AZ penpal), I think,ppl mainly wanting to have fun either ought to find sth. else to do for themselves - or find those prisoners who are likeminded. But a fun experience certainly isn't what I'd recommend a newbie to wach out for.

[QUOTE]If you write with prisoners it's more likely that you come across people who scam, lie, act not normal, are weird,[/QUOTE]

Is that so? Yes, given the probabilities, you're likely right. But what does it mean? What is "normal"? What is "not normal"? Are norms to be accepted? Always? Are some behaviors who are obviously out of the norm perhaps a reaction to the fact that the norms were made up and constructed by ppl who used the norms to deliberately exclude individuals or groups of ppl? Are ppl who act "not normal" wrong and /or dangerous? Always? If not, where's the difference? Do they have to be "fixed"? If so, how and who does it or is given the power to do it?  

To make that clear: I'm not against norms, I know societies need them to organize how to live together and that's ok. But expecting ppl to be "normal" or to act "normal" shows a certain way of looking at things I don't share, a certain "this has to be so and so" that claims to be realistic, but isn't. Reality, when observed, clearly  shows, that there always is a continuum of behavior, so how could expecting ppl to behave only in a certain spectrum of that continnum ever be called realistic?

As for my # 4) I think I#m going to tell my penpal how what he told me made me feel, what I think about it and ask some questions that arise to me from it. The way he answers will tell me how to proceed but I think it's more helpful to find a solution together with him. But thanks, I know the forum is here and I will get back to it if I feel like doing so. I truly appreciate the offer and the reminder.

@ST4s: Were you referring to Joker's reply? I'm a little confused as I'm unsure who you were talking to? 

I need a break now, folks. But I'll get back to the other points I see in here.

Read ya later,

Kirsten

While I'm sure this sort of discourse is not entirely new, I do feel a bit responsible for it coming up this time around so I'll put my two cents in. 

First of all,I share a lot of similar views as Kirsten and ST4s on a lot of this. I think Kirsten summed it up in a more eloquent way than I could have so I'll try not to repeat too much of what she said.

Generally speaking on this topic now, I do agree that yes, there is some level of "reality" that one needs to be aware of when starting something like this. It isn't perfect and I think I have failed to show that I really, genuinely understand that. I've grown averse to the term "naive" in all of this as I feel like it is being used to demean people who are greenhorns in the world of prison writing. Trust me, I have seen some terrible, awful things. My pitfall is not being unaware, it is being willing to put trust where I have a high likelihood of getting third-degree burns. I don't stick my hand in a blender and expect it not to go off, I hold out my hand to unfamiliar dogs hoping that they won't bite me. 

For me, the very supportive aura has been very helpful. I have full trust that most of the people on this forum are trying to help the way they know how to. Writing prisoners has a lot of stigma around it. I get the impression that a lot of the people on here are trying to combat that. There is no shortage of people trying to make this into something scary and when people come on here they are most likely looking for people who are positive and optimistic about things. Yet, there are still plenty of threads where people on here do recommend the hard thing to do such as cutting ties with someone who is no longer healthy for them. I have personally been avoiding airing any of my own dirty laundry on here because I am scared of the harsher town some are suggesting. There are several threads I have deleted mid writing them because I fear that there will be "you're stupid and naive for not seeing this coming and now crying for help" comments on them and if I fear that, I have a feeling there are others too. This is a thread where I come to because I know there are people on here who are able to tell me what I need to hear without making it into what is wrong with me for not seeing this coming like plenty of other people do who come from outside all of this. If I wanted to listen to someone tell me how stupid doing all of this is, I would go talk to my grandma who would rip my head off for so much as having thought about it. Yes, people need to know some of the things that can come up, but if you make something that society has already made out to be terrifying scary even when coming from the people who are veterans, you'll drive away people who would make wonderful penpals and have overall very pleasant experiences. Having relationships with others is hard no matter where you're coming from. I've been burned and bit far more on the outside with ""normal"" people than in my penpal-ing experience. I trust my great uncle in prison with more information about me than I would some of my friends on the outside. Imagine if you couldn't complain when you were having trouble with a romantic partner. Or a friend. It would be alienating. We see so much of the "bad" because for many people this is the only place they can talk about it. I hear far more (and in some cases far worse) in my day-to-day life than on here. This goes deeper than "people aren't anticipating what they should be", it's people struggling with relationship dynamics just like everyone else but with a far more limited space to talk about them. I've had people ask me for money outside of prison, it's hard to say no. Now imagine this person being your friend and they are locked in a box where they are making maybe 14 cents an hour and they're telling you they can't afford a pack of underwear because all their money is going towards packets of ramen they can barely afford. It's not easy, that's why people come on here looking for help. I won't keep beating this dead horse but I just wanted to bring that up. It has been on my mind for a while. I hope I don't come off as angry in any way, it isn't my intent. I'm not expecting to change anyone's opinions per say but I do hope that this helps bring in an element that maybe wasn't at the forefront of people's minds (?).

Anyway, best to everyone, I'm going to go do a scratch painting and eat chocolate pretzels. Cheers : )!

"My pitfall is not being unaware, it is being willing to put trust where I have a high likelihood of getting third-degree burns. I don't stick my hand in a blender and expect it not to go off, I hold out my hand to unfamiliar dogs hoping that they won't bite me."

Listen. At the end of the day, it’s okay to hope. To have hope. To get bitten, to have blood drawn, and come back with hope. To come back with your hand outstretched.

“Imagine you are walking in the woods and you see a small dog sitting by a tree. As you approach it, it suddenly lunges at you, teeth bared. You are frightened and angry. But then you notice that one of its legs is caught in a trap. Immediately your mood shifts from anger to concern: You see that the dog’s aggression is coming from a place of vulnerability and pain. This applies to all of us. When we behave in hurtful ways, it is because we are caught in some kind of trap. The more we look through the eyes of wisdom at ourselves and one another, the more we cultivate a compassionate heart.” Tara Brach

“Okay, the broken gull let me lift it from the sand.
Let me fumble it into a box, with the lid open.
Okay, I put the box into my car and started up the highway
to the place where sometimes, sometimes not, such things can be mended.

The gull at first was quiet.
How everything turns out one way or another, I won't call it good or bad, just one way or another.

Then the gull lurched from the box and onto the back of the front seat and punched me.
Okay, a little blood slid down.

But we all know, don't we, how sometimes things have to feel anger, so as not to be defeated?

I love this world, even in its hard places.
A bird too must love this world, even in its hard places.
So, even if the effort may come to nothing, you have to do something.

It was, generally speaking, a perfectly beautiful summer morning.
The gull beat the air with its good wing.
I kept my eyes on the road."

Mary Oliver, "For Example"

If I can share a perspective...regarding the kind of experience one can hope or expect to find when writing to prisoners, and whether that is promoted in rosy terms or whether newbies are berated for being naive and/or misled with rosy pictures of PP bliss, I think you could very well use the analogy of deciding to be a tourist in a foreign country in order to learn about and meet people from a very different life and culture.  I don't think the people posting on the forum are tourism promoters selling an idealized vision of white-sand beaches, more like other travellers offering tips and experiences.  And sometimes encouragement.  I've seen plenty posted about the potential downsides of the experience, too.  If there isn't more, and more people don't post here about negative experiences but just fade away qietly, I agree that's a shame.  And no one should be shamed for having a bad experience or fear or question.  Going back to the analogy of the foreign country, though, I've done a lot of traveling in foreign places and I find that if I go with preconceptions of what kind of people I'm going to find there--gypsy pickpockets?  Aggressive rug merchants?  Romeos out to get their hands on my visa?--it turns out, Whoa!--that's EXACTLY who I tend to find!  Who would have thought it?  But if I go and just look around and ask questions and don't assume it's going to be scary and bad and some of the locals might be nice--well, that usually turns out to be a better experience.   And this forum is so incredibly helpful as a resource to newcomers, and also to the oldcomers, I really don't know if I would have persisted past my first ill-fated attempt to write that guy who just passed my letter on to someone else, had I not had the feedback here, and since then.  I'm glad everyone here is able to talk about this gnarly stuff with honesty and civility, too.

Joker, I'd like to address your complaint specifically.  You say you feel you're not getting a realistic picture here of what you can expect from a PP correspondence with women in prison, that it's rose-tinted.  As far as I can tell your experiences so far have been disappointing because the women you've written to don't put a lot of effort into their letters and quickly try to use you for something.  In the same breath, you talk about the type of people you find in prison, using a fairly blanket idea of everyone there as a scammer, with the exception of a few gems that might be found, but only with "Luck."  I'd like to suggest that you might have glossed over the idea of combing carefully through the profiles for the bio of the person who speaks to you and somehow indicates they're a really good bet for the kind of match you want...because you have taken the position ahead of time that you aren't going to find that, it's just a crap shoot and a game of hit or miss, the profiles don't tell you anything, or you aren't even really sure what you're really looking for.  I can tell you that I don't think my "luck" in finding a good match in a pen pal was really "luck" at all, I just have a clear notion of what I like and I recognize it when I see it.  All the information is in the bios.  And the crime has nothing to do with it, if you're filtering prisoners by crime before anything else, that speaks to some very shallow criteria that have little to do with how that person might turn out to be as a correspondent.  To be blunt, I think you are approaching this much as one would approach buying the services of a hooker, and then complaing you got ripped off because she wasn't a Phd in Astronomy.  If you're looking for expertise in astronomy, write to someone who indicates that's what she's into.  Don't assume they are all alike, because everyone who's behind bars is by definition there for the reasons you think they are;  don't put no effort into choosing some carefully ('cause they're all the same, right?) and then complain about your bad luck and how people here aren't honest and balanced talking about their good luck experiences.  

TBH, I didn’t think this would unfold quite like this. I was truly curious to hear (but also respectful of the fact she may not have wanted to share, as I said there) Jujay’s reasoning behind leaving. I digressed and maybe shouldn’t have talked about the rest, but it was on my mind. But dialogue is always good and healthy, too, of course.

The thing is, I have stopped myself from making threads, too, that I felt were too negative in tone, because of how not-looking-on-the-bright-side generally does seem to be received here IMHO. There have been times I wanted to simply talk with other people in the same boat about things like, “Things that annoy you about your penpals,” or just to rant and let off some steam, because there are times my penpals very naturally get on my ever-loving nerves (there really are), just as the people around me do, but I had a sense the comments would likely have all been along the lines of “Nothing much really, my penpals are all great people.” And again, nothing wrong with this, just... Well, you know, shrug. 

There is nothing wrong, though, with what any of you are sharing or have shared, and I do want to reiterate that. Mjuran, in closing, I feel that that is a nice perspective to share with everyone.

Oh, wait, I didn’t see your second comment. To clarify, I am referring to the perspective you shared in your first comment.

I got that, Bread!  And thanks, I'm glad you liked the perspective.  I too enjoy many of yours.  And I'm sorry to know you feel there's not a good place here to come to sometimes unload about the not-so-good stuff, too, I completely understand that.  I wonder if there could be a special section for grumbling and complaining, venting, and processing stuff out loud without fear of getting shusshed or dismissed?  I support the idea in theory.

You know, the more I think about that (Bread) the more I see what you're talking about.  There is a sort of rah-rah, "let's be positive to encourage people and ourselves" kind of pep rally chorus, not to put it down because it really is a nice thing;  and there's a chorus of "Whaa!  How Do I Navigate This??"  and a chorus of "This sucks!!" and other choruses too.  There's a place for all of it, and I especially hope there continues to be a place for real, honest, dialog about some of the more complex and contentious stuff.  And sharing personal experiences, good or bad.  

I guess I should say what raises my hackles are the posts that seem to be coming from a place of "prisoners are a different breed of human" and "writing to individuals behind bars is different from writing to anyone else."  Well, due to their life circumstances, which sometimes has been all their adult lives, yes, there are defiinitely differences.  And some might be more damaged than we want to have in our lives.  But I personally don't see anything good out of approaching a group of people this way, suspecting they are more likely to do us harm or abuse us or exploit us than free people, assuming we use common sense;  or deciding to write to "murderers" or whatever crime, ISO good convo.  It's my trigger, I admit it.  But I think it would be a very good idea for anyone coming here to be able to find all the bad side of it too, because there are realities about, how people are shaped by prison, what they have to deal with, and what we have to deal with as their pen pals.  Putting the negative experiences and disappointments out there too is a good thing, and I personally welcome hearing thoughtul discussions about it.