Skip to main content

Must read Terms of Service & Privacy Policy and be at least 18

Must read Terms of Service & Privacy Policy and be at least 18

 
bookworm

To all of you that watched the two part "Larry King Live" special on what life is like in San Quentin(or supossedly!): Did you see the episode that followed, where Mr. King invited victims of crime(many of whom are now so-called "victim's right's advocates") and asked them what they thought of the show?

I did! And let me tell you, as a staunch supporter of prison reform and inmates rights, and a passionate opponent of "capital punishment" it infuriated me! These individuals were filled with bitterness and rage, and intent on revenge.

All of them said that they did not believe that those prisoner's had been rehabilitated, that prisoner's should have no rights whatsoever(one man was even angered by the fact that San Quentin inmates have access to an education) that we should impose harsher sentences, that the death penalty was not barbaric, but a "just form of punishment" and so on and so forth.

I am so sick of these people! We can not allow their all consuming desire for revenge to interfere with our ability to be objective, rational and fair. Everyone is deserving of a second chance, and I do believe that people can change. And criminal or not, inmates deserve to have their basic needs met and their basic human rights respected.

Also, I too wish that Mr. King would have intereviewed a more diverse group of inmates. I think they gave the public the impression that "prison isn't such a bad place", and I don't think that is a good thing. On a positive note, I liked the fact that these men were seemingly intelligent and articulate, because a lot of people seem to think that prisoner's are all "stupid" and "educated". Nothing could be further from the truth. One of my pen pals is a high school drop out, and is smarter than many people I know with university degrees!

This same pen pal was just telling me in his most recent letter to me how awful life in prison is. He told me about how many men he'd seen murdered, how many of his friends had been killed or died from neglect, how abusive prison staff are towards inmates(and how they get away with it!) how prevalent sexual abuse is and so on and so forth. He was angry because he said the public judges him for being "violent" yet inmates have no other choice! In order to survive in that type of environment, it is sometimes necessary to act "tough". For example, if a fellow inmate were to steal something from you or say something to disrespect you, and you were to let it go, you would be perceived as weak and become a target. So in other words, how dare we judge them? After all, if you treat people like animals, you should expect them to act as such. And the conditions that inmates are forced to live under are often worse than those of the animals at the local pound! It's outrageous. And yet it's not good enough for these vicious, heartless "victim's rights advocates". They want blood! It sickens me.

And another thing. I noticed that all the inmates interviewed were self proclaimed "born again Christians". Well, I have nothing against believing in God or practicing a particular religion. But I just feel that religion is not the only way. An inmate doesn't have to turn to religion, in order to better himself. There should be more non faith based programs available to those inmates who are either athiests or agnostics. I just hate how religion is forced upon these inmates, and shoved down their throats. And touted as the only way to turn your life around.

By the way, I was wondering. Did any of you belive the inmates that were intereviewed had truly been reformed, and were deserving of parole?

Lisa


Last post
15 posts / 0 new

 
whitediamonds

bookworm from what I read ,, you and I are exactly on the same page,,, I agree with all you said,,, what I stated in my first post,,, I made a open statement which could have been taken many ways,,,

I agree 100 % with you !!! Sad but oh so true!!!! Wish there was a way this could be paid attention too, it is so important for all involved ,, society and inmates to stop this maddness,, and get into reality with education and awareness !!!!!

 
bookworm

Whitediamonds:

I apologize. I seem to have misunderstood you. It seems that we do agree for the most part on this subject.

I couldn't agree more that inmates do NOT get the help they need while in prison. This is the reason(well at least in part) that the recidivism rate is so high. And second, because we do not do enough to help ex-cons(I hate that word, but will use it for lack of a better term!) either. For instance, no one wants to rent to them or have them living in their neighborhoods, no one wants to hire them and so on and so forth. So the inmate is then forced to return to a life of crime, in order to support his/herself. They are also likely to be discouraged by the general population's attitude towards them. Most people are VERY cynical when it comes to an ex con's prospects for rehabilitation. Having a strong social support system in place is absolutely vital to their success. And unfortunately, many of them do not have that.

It seems to me that from what I know about the living conditions in prison, it actually has the OPPOSITE effect on the inmate, that we as a society hope for. As my pen pal pointed out, after being exposed to violence for so long, one becomes desensitized to it. They may even lose their ability to empathize with other's. So, when they are released, they may in fact pose more of a threat to public safety than when they went in! But the public does not want to hear this. They want prison to be "hell" for the inmates, and want to deprieve them of even the least little bit of pleasure. Even in some cases, the right to advertise for/correspond with pen pals! However, it's important to keep in mind that 90+% of inmates will be released at some point! So, it is in our best interest to do whatever we can to help them!

A friend of mine that is a social worker, told me that studies indicate that a large percentage of inmates actually do NOT belong in prison! They belong in mental health facilities! 1 in 5 inmates is afflicted with serious mental illness? Wow! That is high. I know that the number is even higher for those inmates housed on death row. It's unconscionable to imprison or execute someone who is mentally ill. But then again, out of sight out of mind right? It's easier to "dispose" of these people, than it is to invest our time and resources into helping them. Drug addiction is another MAJOR contributing factor to crime.

Gobbi:

I had a question for you. You said that while you would not hold a grudge against someone who murdered a friend or family member for years, you would not want them walking the streets either. I was wondering, would it depend on the circumstances? Like for instance, if a teenager went into a convenience store with intentions of robbing the place, and something went awry and your friend(the store clerk, or even a customer) was shot and killed, as oppossed to a serial killer who chose your friend at random, and killed him/her because he/she derived some perverse pleasure from torturing/murdering people? I'm curious, because I know that my feelings would depend largely on the circumstances. And age would be a factor for me as well. I wouldn't want a seventeen year old kid for example, to spend the rest of his life in jail. I'd want to at least allow him the opportunity to change the course of his life, and do something positive with the remainder of it. People grow and mature over time. I am not the same person I was when I was sixteen for example(I'm 24 now).

Doggedpursuit:

You made an excellent point, and articulated it very well. You certainly made me stop and think about it, from the victim's perspective. I do have mixed feelings on this though, because like I said the victim or his/her family members could not be expected to be rational and objective. So I don't think it would be wise to put them in charge for instance, of determining what the person's sentence should be.

But I do like the idea of victim impact statements, because it gives the victim a much deserved opportunity to tell the court how the crime impacted their life. And I agree that it would be beneficial for the offender to listen to them speak, so that he/she can fully understand the consequences of their actions and the impact they had on other's. And hopefully come to feel some remorse.

As a matter of fact, one of the inmates interviewed on "Larry King Live" actually mentioned a program that gave inmates the opportunity to write letter's to their victims and/or their family members, expressing remorse for their crimes. The letters are then sent to the D.A. who then decides whether or not to forward them. I thought that was an awesome idea!

I forgot to mention one of the guests was a woman whose pregnant daughter was raped and murdered by two fifteen year old boys, and she was the sole guest on the show who had managed to forgive them! She was a member of the wonderful organization "Murder Victims Families for Reconciliation". She had even met with one of the young men, and told him that she forgave him in person. I really admired that woman.

Everyone else was bitter like I said, and you could hear the contempt in their voice when they spoke of the person who had murderered their loved one.

One in particular was a man whose father and stepmother had been victims of Richard Ramirez(the "Nightstalker"). The crime was quite gruesome(made me feel nautios in fact!). His stepmom had been stabbed forty eight times, and he cut out her eyes and kept them as a "sovenier".

Richard Ramirez is not an individual that I would choose to correspond with. It's not the nature of his crimes that is the main deterrent for me, believe it or not. It is his utter lack of remorse. He is so arrogant, and actually seemed to revel in the pain he had inflicted on so many innocent people. Even gloated and bragged about it. I will re-iterate that I am against "capital punishment" in all case, regardless of how heinous the crime may or may not be. But he is one of the few people that I feel is deserving of the harsh sentence of life without parole.

Lisa

 
whitediamonds

ukmisss, that is right on,,, and that is sad ,,, I have been saying that for a long time and it is the num "ONE" problem.......

If a inmate from the past was abused,, by however,, why did no one know and get help for them then when they turn to the bad ,, no one there either to notice or care ,,, it just goed on and on the cycle and everyone wonders WHY?

 
ukmiss

According to a 2003 study published in the new york times as many as 1 in 5 of the prison population are seriously mentally ill.
he study, by Human Rights Watch, concludes that jails and prisons have become the nation's default mental health system, as more state hospitals have closed and as the country's prison system has quadrupled over the past 30 years. There are now fewer than 80,000 people in mental hospitals, and the number is continuing to fall.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=980CE0D91F3EF…

 
M.I.R.

"Maybe if the victim had a more active role in the trial they would feel less alienated and like they were being heard and had an effect on the outcome. The opportunity to gain at least a little bit of control over a situation where they previously had none."

Interesting concept, Dogged - I'm going to mull this one over.

 
whitediamonds

Bookworm,,,,

Hi, first off, and actually I like you questions and do not take it as confrontatioal at all,,, if you read anything I have said we really are not far apart on beliefs.

I agree seems""" not fact""" there is lots of support for the victims and should be.

When I stated : coming from broken home's abuse etc that makes one a victim turn to causing others victims due to this ,, as the victims have a right for anger, and healthy and normal,, but... as time pass's they need to let go and not hold the hate, hurt and revenge feelings, need to for their own heart ,, souls and minds ,,, hate inside only eats us up and harms them again ,,,

Same holds true for the one who caused the victims,,, yes,, the past caused this to them to ,,,they were abused by all including """ where was everyone else""" society to prevent,, the self rightous""" I agree and have complained about this for ever and no one listens,,, to busy not caring or to be frank " give a S---"

But, the inmate or criminal which once in the system only get more abuse hate and pain inside, no real help or rehabilation ,,,as they claim there is which we all know to be BS !!!

Some inside though after time seem to be strong so what I am saying,, yes, they need a support to,,, to listen to them w/o more judgement and really caring how this came to be,,, but, after time even the inmate over yrs has to see both sides and needs to put blame and hate at rest to ever start to begin to heel themselves and let the past "not easy" take's time to find that they too, need to not pass the buck and start anew so to speak ,, this is the present and for a future it does take taking some responsibility under the now circumstances and with a full pic not just pity to ever accomplish this..

I personally can find a heart for all, victim and the inmate ,, I agree no baby is born evil ,, the ones around them thru life and society create them so,, we ourselves are criminals just even by not caring or being to into the ME" generational thinking ,,, many pepole involved in anyones life and no one saw it coming???

Also we have a problem with mental health,,, not cause by anyone but, can and does also make criminals but, again that does back to society,, it is all about $$$ and guess it just takes to many for society to care to put the $$$ there and pay later with the expensive of prisons them bitch about it .....

One cannot look at one place it takes much wrong,,, looking at one area causes what I call tunne vison,,,, many seem to be in ,,,and cant look at whole pic!!! Plus always the $$$ thing and the self rightous going on ....

My opinion,,,

 
gobbi

Hey Smiley
I was simply saying that if someone had killed my family member or loved one that i wouldn't know whether i would forgive them or not. I don't actually think i would be able to. i wouldnt become all screwed up and spend my whole life thinking of ways to 'get them back' but i am not sure that i would want them out on the street.

I know what it is that i want to say Smiley but i can't get it out right. I will have to think about how i want to put it and then come back to this one. i think you know what i mean but will be back... watch this space.. ahha

 
bookworm

Whitediamonds:

I don't mean to be confrontational here. You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect your right to express it. However, I must respectfully(but strongly) disagree with you on a several fronts.

First off, I too believe that victims of crime deserve understanding, compassion and support. And if it were up to me(if I ran the world!) there would be NO crime! We'd all respect and care for one another enough to refrain from engaging in behavior that would cause another anguish or pain.

However, I believe that there are more than enough people to feel compassion for the victims, while there is a shortage of people out there who feel compassion for inmates, and even fewer who will take the time to befriend them, and fewer still who will advocate on their behalf.

And I was a little taken aback to be honest, when you said that things like coming from a broken home for instance, were just "excuses" and that you were tired of criminals "passing the buck" and blaming other's for their actions. I don't mean any disrespect, but usually people that are of that mindset have nothing but contempt for prisoner's, and would not even so much as give them the time of day let alone correspond with, and even get involved romantically with one. So I'm not sure what to make of that?

I mean to be quite frank(and this is more than likely going to be an unpopular opinion) I've never given much thought to those who were victimized by my pen pals(friends). I mean, I don't know THEM. However I do know and love my pen pals, therefore I admit to being biased. I only see the good in them. My love for them impedes my ability to be objective and fair. Just as the anger(whether it be legitimate or not) "victim's rights advocates" feel for the perpetrator of the crime impairs their ability to be objective and fair. Hence why neither the victim's family members nor the family member's of the accussed would be allowed to sit on a jury or a parole board. And rightly so!

And one more thing. Just a thought. Perhaps it is US(meaning society as a whole, not you personally of course) that is "passing the buck". People talk a lot about inmates needing to accept responsibility for their actions. What about US? What responsibility do we share? In my opinion we don't do nearly enough to help these people, BEFORE they arrive at that point in their lives.
Where the hell were these self-rightous individuals when our pen pals were being molested? Beaten? Neglected? Instead of crying out for stiffer penalties, perhaps these people should focus more of their attention on crime prevention.

And I'm not so sure that I agree that my pen pals had "other choices". I think it is very easy for someone on the outside looking in, to speculate about what they would do in a given situation. However, we don't really know until we've been there ourselves.

Knowing what I do about my inmate friend's upbringing and past experiences I can very clearly see(and understand) how they wound up on the path they did. And I'm not so sure it is entirely their fault. I think there is a lot of blame to go around, and it seems unfair that it should fall ALL on their shoulders. It's a cop out on our part!

One pen pal in particular(that I actually have feelings that go beyond friendship for) has a very violent criminal past. However, I do not believe he is a bad person. I believe that no one ever taught him how to resolve conflict without resorting to violence. For years he was the victim, and then he became the victimizer. No one, not even the worst of the worst, was born "evil". We were all born innocent and pure. Somewhere along the line something went wrong.

Deep down inside he has a good heart. You just have to take the time to look beneath the tough exterior. He will be eligible for parole at some point, and I do believe that he deserves it. However, unlike individuals like Richard Ramirez or Ted Bundy for example, he did not prey on innocent people nor did he kill for pleasure, or because it made him feel powerful and in control. He killed someone who had inflicted years of abuse on him. I believe he is deserving of a second chance, and I don't think he would pose a threat to innocent people. Every circumstance is different. Not all murderer's were created alike. So these "victims rights advocates" were being irrational when they said ALL murderers were dangerous, could not be helped, and should be locked up for life.

Now I have heard the argument that some people are abused and don't grow up to be criminals, and it's old. Look, some people are stronger and more resiliant than other's. Some people have better coping skills than other's. Some people are fortunate enough to have a strong support system. Or a positive role model in their lives, even if it isn't necessarily a parent or an immediate family member. Something as simple as that could make all the difference.

Why is it that some people committ suicide, while other's who have lived through equally painful and traumatic events manage to survive? To overcome? I don't know. Everyone is different, and everyone deals with trauma differently. We are all unique individuals.

And Gobbi:

I honestly do not know how I would feel if one of these inmates had killed someone I loved. But I do hope that I would be able to find it in my heart to forgive them. I would not want to turn into some bitter, veangeful, mean-spirited woman who was consumed with a desire to avenge that person's death. And even if that person were to be put to death, it would not bring my loved one back. It would just tear another family apart. So what's the point?

I can say one thing with absolute certainty though. I was having a conversation(it's kind of morbid, I know! LOL) with my mom the other day, regarding how I would want her and my loved ones to respond, if I were to ever be murderered(hopefully that won't happen, but just in case!). And I told her that I would want her to(even if she was unable to forgive him/her) to ask the judge for leniency. And if heaven forbid it, Canada ever re-enstates "capital punishment" I would want her to fight with every ounce of her being, to prevent my killer from being murdered at the hands of the state. It would go against everything I stood for in life, and would not be the way I would want my spirit honored. I would be devastated in fact, to know that my parents pushed for such a punishment knowing how I felt about this cruel, barbarous, immoral act. I would NEVER forgive THEM! I don't care if he WAS Richard Ramirez or Charles Manson. He is still a human being and a child of God, and murder is murder. Regardless of whatever euphimisims death penalty advocates prefer to employ, in order for them to be able to sleep better at night.

Lisa

 
whitediamonds

I have never been exposed to a violent crime and I did not see that part of Larry King ,,but, from the part I did see ,, I wondered what the point was,, now it makes some sense,, wish I had seen that.

I do agree the victims are treated like silent background,, I do understand and feel for them ,,, they need support too very much so...

I also felt on the inmates part I did see, there was to much using found God,,, that bothers me,,,, and it felt like it was some resort and not reality on their parts for whatever thousand reasons there could be.

I may write inmates and may have ended up marrying one,,, but, I see all sides and the inmate is not the victim,, only to the system which makes things worse not better,,,

I have a hard cold stance maybe on crime,, ones who commit them ,,,for being here maybe,, but,, not matter what happens as a child ,,, we still make our own choices on which way to us it ,,,, I know at least from my childhood I came up to many hard times and things ,, I new even at 8 yrs old ,,, which way I take it is my problem and responsability ,,, I honestly get a little tired of the poor me so what could I do,,
and passing the buck to everyone around them.

Sorry if this upsets but,, I do believe even as kids we all know this !!!!

 
encino_cal

I feel that these people are justified in the anger towards people who have hurt or murdered there love ones.You can't understand how that feels unless you have been in that situation.

 
smiley

gobbi, i don't understand what it is you want us to answer. Be more specific, so i can help you.

 
gobbi

Terrible thought and i certainly dont mean to cause a war in here, but... what if one of those prisoners had killed one of your mates or family members?

 
Doggedpursuit

I wonder how much of a crime victims anger stems from the way they are treated by the criminal justice system in addition to being victimized during a crime.
Our system removes victims almost entirely from the trial process and in fact people are charged with a crime against the STATE and not an individual. The victims of crime are treated as non-entities and almost as if they really don't matter. I think this perpetuates as sense of helplessness and "revictimizes" them.
Also, we treat people who are convicted of crimes as "criminals" and don't see them as people but rather something less than human. Maybe if the victim had a more active role in the trial they would feel less alienated and like they were being heard and had an effect on the outcome. The opportunity to gain at least a little bit of control over a situation where they previously had none.
Likewise the person convicted of the crime should be forced to face the victim so they see a human face and recognize the damage they have done.
Don't you think that the "depersonalizing" of both the victim and the perpetrator does little to resolve the situation and ultimately causes more anger and frustration?
It's obvious that nobody is happy with the system we have now.

 
smiley

I have not seen the shows, so i cannot make an honest comment there. What i will say is you will always find people that have the attitude you spoke of. All we can continue to do is try and educate those around us so things will change for the better. Much can be said on that subject.
What i also wanted to comment on was what your opinion was here.....

"And another thing. I noticed that all the inmates interviewed were self proclaimed "born again Christians". Well, I have nothing against believing in God or practicing a particular religion. But I just feel that religion is not the only way. An inmate doesn't have to turn to religion, in order to better himself. There should be more non faith based programs available to those inmates who are either athiests or agnostics. I just hate how religion is forced upon these inmates, and shoved down their throats. And touted as the only way to turn your life around."

I only can speak from the knowledge and opinions that that i have and hold......

Most people turn back to "a religion/faith" when things go wrong in there life. When there is no other hope, sometimes all they have to hold onto is a faith/belief. I honestly do not believe it is shoved down there throats as you suggested. Not where my friends are anyway.
I really do not think it has to do with the prison system as much as what is has to do with there living conditions and what goes on internally within one's being. Sometimes a belief/faith is what it does take to give you an inner strength to turn your life around and believe in yourself. It really has nothing to do with the religion or belief as such but your own inner resolve. I hope you understand what i mean.

 
Xray48

Do you feel better, now, Lisa? :-))
I understand how you feel, and I agree. I can't say that their attitudes make me sick, but they do make me sad.
We cannot take away their pain and suffering from the loss of a loved one. But, hopefully we can talk to them and make them understand that their anger and hatred is only tearing them up, inside, and making them sick. Most of them won't listen, right now. But, some day they will get tired of being so angry and then will be the time to talk.
And, you are SO correct in saying that we need to hear a more diversified crossection of people. Hear more voices of reason.
I guess, that all in all, Larry King blew it. It was a good idea, but he only covered the very good inmates and apparently only covered the very angry friends of victims. Maybe he did it on purpose, just to sell a show, which would be sad.
Thank you for bringing this to our attention. I had missed the followup to his previous two shows.