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Earthmother

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whitediamonds

Eh? I only mentioned God because you did and used it for illustration.

LOL sorry, just another side comment on the use of God, by some.

 
Sporadium

[QUOTE=peanut2;1178501]

Agree, but I think your missing my point, so, no other area of life" ( or living) do we take away ones choice or future in absolute terms is where we split. I see many area's where we do, by the choice to end life.

What other areas of life is choice and possibility taken away absolutely other than ones that result in death, either state sanctioned or criminal?

If it does not end in death then I would argue that it is not comparable because there is always chance, opportunity and agency, no matter how slim it may be.

 
Sporadium

No, you cannot separate by reason, way, choices, or circumstances to say they are separate from the DP.
I have no idea if there is a God or not, nothing factual proves he is real or facts to prove he does not exist. When some use God for defense it is a moot point for me. Not credible for debate.

Eh? I only mentioned God because you did and used it for illustration.

 
whitediamonds

If only God can take life and the death penalty is taking life, then this would again separate it from other things.

No, you cannot separate by reason, way, choices, or circumstances to say they are separate from the DP.
I have no idea if there is a God or not, nothing factual proves he is real or facts to prove he does not exist. When some use God for defense it is a moot point for me. Not credible for debate.

 
whitediamonds

[QUOTE=Sporadium;1178500]We do not take away ones choice or future in absolute terms in anything except death. /QUOTE]

Agree, but I think your missing my point, so, no other area of life" ( or living) do we take away ones choice or future in absolute terms is where we split. I see many area's where we do, by the choice to end life.

 
Sporadium

Which we do in many area's of life. Where the DP is doled out so it does not separate from the other area's, life it taken.

We do not take away ones choice or future in absolute terms in anything except death. So there is a clear separation there.

 
Sporadium

My placing the word God into my post was some say" only God has the right to take life. If so we are playing God.

If only God can take life and the death penalty is taking life, then this would again separate it from other things.

 
whitediamonds

I think it is in Unforgiven when Clint says "When you kill a man, you take away all he has and all he ever will have". It is the latter part of that quote that separates the DP from everything else.

Which we do in many area's of life. Where the DP is doled out so it does not separate from the other area's, life it taken.

My placing the word God into my post was some say" only God has the right to take life. If so we are playing God.

 
Sporadium

I believe as a smart person, we do play God in many area's of life everyday. So, what makes the DP from the other area's any different?

If you look at it only from the perspective of other people interfering and influencing other peoples path of life then, yes. A judge handing down a death sentence is no different than me telling my son to go to his room because he punched his sister in the arm (again!). But there is a clear difference in terms of finality and consequence that separates the DP from everything else. Everything else doesn't remove future, possibility and agency or choice. The DP does. It differs because it neither limits future paths or influences the direction an individual may take as other actions do, it removes all paths completely.
I think it is in Unforgiven when Clint says "When you kill a man, you take away all he has and all he ever will have". It is the latter part of that quote that separates the DP from everything else.

 
Sporadium

A fitting tune for this thread. Also happens to be a great one.
https://youtu.be/zgtEVsRfJ_s

 
whitediamonds

I believe as a smart person, we do play God in many area's of life everyday. So, what makes the DP from the other area's any different?

 
gooddog

Now it's just going to be a whole lot of this : Refuge occupier seeks $666 billion in damages 'from works of devil' | OregonLive.com

 
gooddog

Okay, it's over. First 3 came out due to Michelle Fiore's excellent handling of the situation. Last one had a mental health crises but was finally talked into coming out by an FBI agent. I'm so glad this did not end in bloodshed though the ripples of it will be felt for a long, long time on multiple levels in multiple ways.

Seems the FBI really has learned something since Waco and Ruby Ridge on best practices. We did not need another senseless repeat of either of those. WHEW!!!!!

 
sunray's wench

3 out, 1 to go.

 
gooddog

Like I once said, if they had sent a biblical expert to talk to Koresh the way Michelle Fiore is talking to these people right now: on the same page ideologically, things might have a chance to end more peacefully. You need someone on the same page not an antagonist (what they perceive as an antagonist).

They're saying they're going to grab an American flag, hold hands, and walk out the door.... unarmed. They say.

 
gooddog

Oregon standoff: Last occupiers expected to surrender to FBI (live updates) | OregonLive.com

It seems to help the situation for them to be heard for this long over the airwaves. They sure are getting a lot of time to air their issues where many with other issues do not.

 
gooddog

Fiore is sitting at the gate with the FBI in a car making final negotiations. They want to take Finnicum's bible and the woman wants to take her purse. They wrote Fiore's number on their arm so they can call her from jail.
I guess she is now their "voice" that they will count on from jail. Interesting when they will actually come out, live streaming once again on youtube.

 
AussieGuy

I normally oppose the death penalty in all but the most obvious of cases, but this is an obvious case of a person who thought the law did not apply to him in any sense. Moreover he staged combat with a peace officer. No objections on my behalf.

[img]http://rs375.pbsrc.com/albums/oo194/TheCuteWoofer/Smilies/Holidays/Hall…]

 
gooddog

I don't think there should be, I just think there will be. Sadly.

Well, I have to go clean a friend's house so I will be listening live with headphones on all morning. It's really upsetting that when the crazy factor gets ratcheted up there has to be an aggro response. I wish they would "come to their senses" and avoid getting killed over this. This Frye kid is particularly unhinged and prone to amping up.

 
gooddog

All the more fun and games charge them with treason and get it over and done with. If they want to play like that, ride the lightning.

That's what the majority of people who are not "them" are saying.

 
AussieGuy

All the more fun and games charge them with treason and get it over and done with. If they want to play like that, ride the lightning.

 
sunray's wench

I hope there will be no shots fired despite the amount of people saying there should be.

I don't think there should be, I just think there will be. Sadly.

 
AussieGuy

Good, this idiot should have been behind bars two years ago! What is with the state of police in America? It's just too bad he'll probably get 5 years and a slap on he wrist. I don't see how a redneck with a bunch of guns even committed a conspiracy, he should be charged with perverting the course of justice.

 
gooddog

I listened to it. Not really sure what is going on, but one thing I could tell, those people are dumb. Also, lots of reference to God.

It's a whole lot of crazy. It's a very right wing/religious radio show host talking to them and giving them an audience. Some more unhinged than others. References to "their" jails as if they are a separate race and we, the rest of society want to just put them in jail for fun. Every minute that kind of talk.
I'm not sure why "their" jail would be different for them or for me if I broke the law too.

Part of it was also an FBI negotiator on route from Portland (takes hours to drive out there) and Michelle Fiore, a conservative politician who backs them but was trying to keep them "positive."

 
gooddog

Yep, Cliven arrested at the Portland airport. Now they say that the 4 holed up are due to come out at 8 this morning. We shall see.

Man that live youtube feed from inside the refuge was a whole lot of crazy to listen to.

I hope there will be no shots fired despite the amount of people saying there should be.

 
sunray's wench

Cliven Bundy arrested in Portland Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy arrested by FBI in Portland | OregonLive.com

 
sunray's wench

It would appear that this will only end in one way, and the FBI are not going to be the popular kids for it. I'm a little surprised that the FBI haven't used their cell phone blocking technology to limit the extra contact with the "outside world".

These 4 people are clearly domestic terrorists, willing to die for the cause they believe in. Many Americans have never really understood that concept, unlike Brits with the presence of the IRA and Spanish with ETA.

 
Sporadium

I listened to it. Not really sure what is going on, but one thing I could tell, those people are dumb. Also, lots of reference to God.

 
gooddog

55,000 people listening live on youtube right now. Totally weird.

 
gooddog

Here's a more concise recording of what is going on, holy schizz it's weird...

Oregon standoff: FBI moves in on last refuge occupiers | OregonLive.com

 
gooddog

Yep, it's going down.
This youtube video made by occupier David Frye as it's happening. Whoa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOlrSain0lk

 
Sporadium

Trump has a sincere smile? To me the guy just oozes contempt for anyone that is not just like him and as he believes he is God's gift, that pretty much means everyone.

 
whitediamonds

A specialist on facial smiles.

Trump & Sanders have sincere smiles, Hillary did not fare so well, ( not surprising) her smile shows she is hiding something..lol Gee no chit she is.

 
whitediamonds

I like Ben Carson he seems like a really good person, good common sense, but not as a President.

 
Amantha

I believe some Rep will win.

As long as Hilary doesn't win I'd even be okay with Trump at this point.

 
gooddog

Right about now I'd stand for each one of them to really put the cards on the table of how these high and mighty things they talk about are going to be paid for/executed. Exactly WHAT is going to happen and HOW in realistic, non-pie in the sky, doable ways. It's so tiresome to hear how everything will be "new and better" and yet the facts (facts not wishes or good ideas) are often a bit slippery of just HOW these things will be achieved.

Anyone making simplistic one liners about how extremely complex situations are to be handled seem like they are making election speech instead of real talk

I would like a non-bombastic, non-aggro roundtable discussion. Soon like.

 
whitediamonds

Actually, if you believe the poll data Sanders very well could win. I personally don't put much faith in polling, but, according to national polling, Trump can't win, not even against Sanders. Every day it's looking like Trump is going to be the guy for the Republicans, so maybe you need to question why Republican voters don't seem to "know what's good for them." Marco Rubio is the only one showing to win against Clinton and Sanders both and look at where he is. People aren't taking us young voters seriously, once again. We put Obama in and we'll put Sanders in if we want to. Everyone said the same thing about Obama, how he'd never appeal to the middle ground, and look what happened.

I believe some Rep will win.

 
SidVicious

The fact that Sanders believes he can win the middle ground between Democratic Party voters and Republicans is a pipe dream. If Sanders wins the primaries the Democratic Party is going to sleepwalk itself into a major election loss. Clinton is the candidate the Democrats need but she just doesn't have the legs to get over the hump. These Sanders voters don't know what's good for them and they think they can throw up a candidate that is even more radical than a young Barack Obama. Sanders will never win the middle ground in the United States. If it came down to the conference I'd be putting it to Sanders just how in the hell and with what road map does he actually think he'll ever get through America to win office. I see more chance of snowflakes in hell. If I were Clinton I'd be riding that one all the way to the democratic super PACs.

Actually, if you believe the poll data Sanders very well could win. I personally don't put much faith in polling, but, according to national polling, Trump can't win, not even against Sanders. Every day it's looking like Trump is going to be the guy for the Republicans, so maybe you need to question why Republican voters don't seem to "know what's good for them." Marco Rubio is the only one showing to win against Clinton and Sanders both and look at where he is. People aren't taking us young voters seriously, once again. We put Obama in and we'll put Sanders in if we want to. Everyone said the same thing about Obama, how he'd never appeal to the middle ground, and look what happened.

 
Amantha

All these young kids that believe that Sanders can win through the middle, honestly I don't believe there is enough of them, that have their wits about them, particularly with what the right think about universal healthcare and education. I think Clinton has a far better chance of beating the Donald than Sanders ever will and Clinton has much more of a presence in the right than Sanders will also. I am not an American though, so what I think is kind of irrelevant. However, I think the Sanders camp are in just as much of a lullaby state as anyone who ever though McCain could get up and look what happened.

Clinton failed miserably with women all around. The polls show women can't stand her.

 
gooddog

A couple of weeks ago I was crossing the border by car and the guy was being super pleasant (which generally means they ask a couple of questions and not the in-depth questioning) so I was expecting to be let across when out of no where he throws in "Are you bringing a firearm into the US" and I was surprised and was like No.

Next thing I knew I was vacating my car to sit on the bench while he searched my car for the gun he thought I WAS bringing into the US. HAHAH!

OOPS!

These Canadians aren't messing around.

 
Saskatchewanian

Lol. I didn't expect such superficiality from Canada! I thought my heart and soul might be examined, not my hair. But if that's the criteria, okay... yes, my hair could be considered "nice" (nice enough?)

Once, my dad got in trouble at customs driving from Canada into New York state because he bought fireworks in Canada and they are illegal in New York and we got caught. Also, in my wild youth, I got my car searched at the Canadian border and they found a single pot seed that wasn't mine because I don't smoke. Not a good scene at all. Big drug bust at the border, courtesy of me. Quite a haul, a single pot seed left there by idiot friend. So I doubt they'd take me. As you can see I have a long and criminal past when it comes to Canada.

A couple of weeks ago I was crossing the border by car and the guy was being super pleasant (which generally means they ask a couple of questions and not the in-depth questioning) so I was expecting to be let across when out of no where he throws in "Are you bringing a firearm into the US" and I was surprised and was like No.

Next thing I knew I was vacating my car to sit on the bench while he searched my car for the gun he thought I WAS bringing into the US. HAHAH!

OOPS!

 
gooddog

Lol. I didn't expect such superficiality from Canada! I thought my heart and soul might be examined, not my hair. But if that's the criteria, okay... yes, my hair could be considered "nice" (nice enough?)

Once, my dad got in trouble at customs driving from Canada into New York state because he bought fireworks in Canada and they are illegal in New York and we got caught. Also, in my wild youth, I got my car searched at the Canadian border and they found a single pot seed that wasn't mine because I don't smoke. Not a good scene at all. Big drug bust at the border, courtesy of me. Quite a haul, a single pot seed left there by idiot friend. So I doubt they'd take me. As you can see I have a long and criminal past when it comes to Canada.

 
Earthmother

Canada: sensible. Seems so. But if they let riff raff in that easily? All I have to do is wear a T-shirt?

It depends...do you have "nice hair" too?

 
gooddog

Canada: sensible. Seems so. But if they let riff raff in that easily? All I have to do is wear a T-shirt?

 
Earthmother

I just want someone good.
Sigh.

(Buys a pair of noseplugs...votes.)

Canada will have you. Your Justin (Trudeau, not Bieber) shirt is in the mail.

 
gooddog

I just want someone good.
Sigh.

(Buys a pair of noseplugs...votes.)

 
Earthmother

I feel like I HAVE been slapped with bacon and covered in syrup watching some things in this election! But then again, when is it ever right? Oh wait, I know... like the one they just had in CANADA! (jealous much? yup.)

Don't be jelly just because you wish your leader will be as hot as ours! :yum:

 
gooddog

We shall slap you with raw slices of Canadian bacon and pour maple syrup on your heads!:swordfight:

I feel like I HAVE been slapped with bacon and covered in syrup watching some things in this election! But then again, when is it ever right? Oh wait, I know... like the one they just had in CANADA! (jealous much? yup.)

 
Earthmother

Sometimes I watch the parade of clowns we have and it makes me so mad...
I want to start a war. IN CANADA!:yup:
Get 'em all riled up there the way we are down here.

We shall slap you with raw slices of Canadian bacon and pour maple syrup on your heads!:swordfight: