It always saddens me understanding it takes a life lost to make changes, wonder what will come from all of this?
A 17-year-old boy whose death has sparked national outrage fearfully told his girlfriend over the phone moments before he was shot to death that he was being followed, contradicting the shooter's self-defense claim, the family’s lawyer said Tuesday afternoon.
Martin was unarmed and had gone to a nearby store to pick up a bag of Skittles and an iced tea when the confrontation occurred. Earlier on Tuesday, ABC News reported that Martin's girlfriend said she they were on the phone together at the time.
The gunman, Neighborhood Watch captain George Zimmerman, has not been charged and has said he shot the teen in self-defense.
"Mr. Zimmerman was not acting outside the legal boundaries of Florida Statute by carrying his weapon when this incident occurred," he wrote.
"My son did not deserve to die," the teen's father, Tracy Martin, said.
U.S. News - Trayvon Martin's final phone call: 'He said this man was watching him'
Calls mount for police chief's firing in Trayvon Martin case
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You are right, Smiley. This case has gained national attention. It would appear that the shooter, 27 year old George Zimmerman, was a self-appointed vigilante, who has had his own run-ins with the law and has a reputation for always being on the look-out for trouble. On this particular evening, Mr. Z called 911 and reported a suspicious looking charactor, walking through a residental district. A gated community, in fact. The 911 dispatcher advised Mr. Z not to persue the individual. Shortly therafter, the youth Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.
In my opinion, the whole thing smacks of a bully looking for trouble and this seventeen year old kid just happened to get in the way. Sadly, and unbelievably, Mr. Z has not been arrested. The justice department is investigating, and frankly, I hope that they bring charges against Mr. Z, for a hate crime . . and against law enforcement authorities for failing to perform their duties.
Florida has a law, which says that if you are attacked, you can shoot someone in self defense. But, that law does not apply to this situation where Mr. Z aggressively persued the young man and then shot him down in cold blood.
I don't know that any changes need to be made, other than the shooter being prosecuted and police officers being thrown out of their jobs.
Two concepts that I find abhorrent:
1. "Neighbourhood Watch"
2. "Gated Community".
The case is blowing up huge as we speak. I pray that this family gets some justice and this shooter is taken out of the society that I too have to live in.
Zimmerman needs mental evaluation. From what I understand this guy has been pretty obsessive about this whole "neighborhood watch" thing, right?
I'll admit that I'm probably one of the very few people in this country that doesn't know everything about this case (because I don't watch the news or read it much at the present time), but the bits I do know are disturbing.
This is the first Ive heard of this, but it doesn't look good on this Zimmerman fellow. From the accounts I'm seeing he followed the kid, after being told not to, so most likely he provoked the whole thing, and should be prosecuted.
Just saw this: U.S. News - Police chief receives vote of no confidence over handling of Trayvon Martin case
Here's a good article:
Trayvon Martin Shooting Does Not Incite Hispanic-Black Tension, Focus Remains On Police
We even had this on our news today, but I am not sure what to say about this because I am not that familiar with US self defense laws. (However, in Germany it wouldn't have been that easy for Mr. Z to be spared from an arrest, even in self defense)
That actually made the news over here too...not often that happens.
Police chief in Trayvon Martin case to step down | The Lookout - Yahoo! News
I had a call from the prison early morn and this subject came up, he asked what if it had been a black kid who had shot a white guy, where would he be sitting now? We both know the answer to that. As much as people say the colour of your skin matters not, truly it does in many instances. I could not help but think about the 9 year old boy from Washington we were talking about recently who took a gun to school and killed a friend. He ends up in custody yet this guy is free. I think there is something wrong with that picture no matter what way i look at it.
I know different states have different regulations governing gun control, crime etc, but why is he not in custody KNOWING he was told to stand down, not follow the kid by Police and he ignored there request?
What you are describing, Smiley, is prejudice . . . a very sad fact of life. What caring individual would not restore life to Trayvon Martin and ease the pain in his parent's hearts? Not anyone, with an ounce of sense, I cannot help but believe. As it is, many of us are still frustrated by the fact that Mr. Zimmerman is still free in spite of the overwhelming evidence that this may have been cold blooded murder. However, if we are to practice what we preach, we have to patiently await the evidence, as established by the proper authoritiies. Even though we grit our teeth, we still have to acknowledge that Mr. Z is innocent until proven guilty. Just because the whole world believes him guilty does not make it so.
As for different police behavior for people of color, you are absolutely right. I have no doubt that if Mr. Z had been black, he would be in jail, as we speak. It is for this reason that I think that the federal investigation needs to dig deep into the actions of the Sanford police department . . not only in this case, but in other cases that are now coming to light. Will we ever eliminate prejudice? Probably not. Many of these people have it ingrained, in their souls, from the day they are born. Perhaps a taste of their own medicine might make them see the light. But, I doubt it. It would only fan the flames of hatred. Because, in their eyes, they are all right and their victims are all wrong.
Sorry for venting, but I grieve for Treyvon Martin, whose life was snuffed out at a very early age. And, also for his parents who must be wondering if life is worth living. They will need a lot of support.
I've watched as this case has unfolded. And it is absolutely tragic. I definitely see race as an issue in this situation. What I am so surprised about is the apparent law that the police are hiding behind in justifying why Zimmerman isn't in jail yet. Apparently there is a very liberal self defense law in this state. And Zimmerman had a concealed weapons permit. My understanding is that these are the reasons they are siting as to why he hasn't been detained during the investigation. If that is the truth, then this self defese policy needs serious overhaul! Trayvon was 70 feet (from what I recall in the coverage I've heard) away from Zimmerman's house. I have never heard of a self defense law including shooting someone who isn't even on your property! Typically they have to be not only on your property, but in your house, and feel that your life is in imminent danger. That law seriously needs to overhauled! Given the amount of coverage this story is getting, and the vast amount of eye witnesses coming forth supporting the viewpoint that Trayvon was doing NOTHING wrong, Zimmerman will find his way into a jail cell soon. What's saddest about this situation is that I truly beleive that Zimmerman actually beleives what he is saying. How do get through to someone who can't even understand that what they did was a hate crime...not a heroic act of keeping the neighborhood safe.
That's the thing, for a LOT of people they sincerely believe what they are doing is justified. I know people do not like comparisons, but young gang bangers that go to prison for murder BELIEVE what they are doing is justified, it's either kill or be killed in many instances, they are at war, like many soldiers. Do i see it that way.....NO.....but others do.
I have to wonder why someone feels the need to carry a gun (on self) in society in the USA to feel or be safe today. Why is anyone besides law enforcement allowed to carry a gun? I am not disputing your rights to these laws, but why have them? Do they really protect anyone? I can understand although i may not agree to have them on your property to protect self as Number explained, but to have them on you, do you not think that an extreme, especially when you live in a good community?
A lot of people sincerely believed that pluto was a planet. They were wrong.
A lot of people sincerely believe that birth contol is a weapon of the war against humanity. They are wrong.
Sincere belief is not a justification for criminal behaviour.
I need to point out a couple of things.
1. Zimmerman is not white.
2. He was not told to stand down by police. He was told not to follow him by a 911 dispatcher, who is not police. A 911 dispatcher has no authority whatsoever and one does not need to heed their "advice" ever.
Perhaps I need to point out:
1. The skin colour of neither the perpetrator nor the vicyim is immaterial.
2. A 911 dispatcher may not have authority, but is a trained operator, and their, and their advice should be listened to.
3. The perpetrator had no authority to be doing what he was doing.
4. A murder was committed, and murderers should be brought to justice.
Ooops never mind, I just misread your post! As you were!
hunh?
Yesterday, A special prosecuter issued a warrant for the arrest of George Zimmerman, on a charge of 2nd degree murder. Mr. Zimmerman has turned himself in to authorities and is expected to be indicted today. Attorneys for both the prosecution and the defense both appear to be very competent, after many missteps, in the past, on both sides. The amazing part is the peace and calm that seems to be present in the whole situation. It seems that the whole world may be thankful that Trayvon Martin's death is accounted for and that Mr. Zimmerman will receive a fair trial. There may be many lessons, to be learned, in the proceedings that follow. There is speculation that the trial may be televised. If convicted, Mr. Zimmerman could be sentenced to between 15 years and life. There is no death penalty for 2nd degree murder, in Florida.
If the trial is to be televised, I, for one, will be not watching. The deliberations of a court are between the individuals involved, and their God(s). To turn it into an event for the idle entertainment of the public is a travesty.
While I agree, you would be amazed at what a big pasttime TV trials are, in the U.S. If there isn't a real trial going on, they make up trials over divorces, car wrecks and unpaid rent. Some people seem to think that those are more entertaining than a soap opera.
I don't recall the year, but the O.J. Simpson murder trial attracted millions of viewers: many of whom were devastated when he was found innocent by a jury of his peers. There is speculation that this trial, "State of Florida vs Zimmerman", may attract just as many viewers as the Simpson trial. (Note: O.J. Simpson is a famous football player who was living in a wealthy neighborhood. The murder of his estranged wife involved a lot of serious plotting: with ranger training that included killing with a knife and airline tickets to far off lands. Since the trial, his house has been torn down due to the heavy influx of tourists, flocking to the site, and making it impossible for his neighbors to get in and out of their driveways.)
This thing with the Trayvon Martin murder has already gone big time. I heard that as many as 2 million people signed petitions for the arrest of George Zimmerman. With the noteriety that the situation has received, there are some who fear that a "fair" trial will be impossible, with a panel of unbiased jurors.
I am wondering how they are going to possibly find an impartial jury to even take this case to court?
You just have to wonder what positives can come from live court room feeds. I think ok, if you want to be apart of reality tv and have people come into your life and view much of what you say and do, having a nice pay packet at the end of the day, so be it. But to telecast court room tv is just a reminder to me how we exploit those most vulnerable, time and time again on both sides of the cameras.
I doubt it's even going to go to trial. They probably overcharged him on purpose so they can get him to plead down to a lesser charge, like manslaughter, and avoid a trial altogether. If this were to go to trial, we're looking at a bigger circus than the Casey Anthony trial and the OJ Simpson trial were.
Also, this morning on TV, Trayvon's mother said that she believed this was all an accident. "I believe it all got out of control and Zimmerman couldn't turn the clock back." Something to that effect. This was before she went on another station and said that Zimmerman stalked her son and murdered him in cold blood.
See how completely out of hand this has all gotten?
This is one of the things i seriously dislike about how they "play" the INjustice system.
Moxie you missed your calling in life. You would do well in the law. (or maybe you are... I thought it was shipping?) Anyhow, you know stuff. Yep.
i just saw this so i want to reply as it was directed towards me. :)
1. tell that to everyone making this a race issue.
2. it's up to the person calling for help to heed the advice of a 911 dispatcher.
3. he was a part of a neighborhood watch group, that are a staple in many communities in this country, and he had the right to report anything he found suspicious.
4. you're presuming him guilty of murder (by the legal definition) without knowing the facts. none of us know if this was indeed a murder.
i chalk it up to my years as a often-bored mailroom clerk who sometimes had nothing better to do than grabbing reading material out of the law library or going hang out with the warden who was a former detective. :p
I think it's a certain type of person that really has the ability to grasp laws AND have the ability to perceive them in impartial ways. I know nothing about it and have had zero exposure to it UNTIL my pp started talking about his case and legalities. He asked me to write his lawyer a letter once, which I did and I looked up her site and saw a few of her public appearances on talk shows. She's THE advocate for reforming juvenile justice in Nevada. The woman is soooooooo smart and fierce. It really takes a lot to argue your case and your point and keep cool and always have the right answers!!!
Not to mention dealing with people's lives in cases and such. I could never imagine it....
You just sound like you have that kind of mind that can comprehend the law.
I think you are pulling at straws, or picking at nits, or whatever the expression is in your part of the world.
1. People can make a 'race issue' of any incident if they choose to do so. Aren't we all members of the human race? I stand by what I said above. I am an indigenous Australian, and therefore a 'black man'. However, my skin is 'white', and my ethnicity is British. I I were to go out and kill someone of Asian appearance because they were assaulting a person of Middle Eastern appearance, would that be a race issue?
2. Exactly. And in this case, the caller did not heed the dispatcher. Hopefully, he will suffer the consequences od his unwillingness to heed.
3. I know very little about how Neighbourhood Watch operates in the USA, but I am pretty sure that the right to report does not extend to the right to shoot.
4. A person died as a result of being shot with a firearm. Surely that is murder in any jurisdiction? The courts may find the murder justifiable or accidental, but it is still a murder.
I have been pondering this for more than an hour before I decided I should respond:
Maybe that often-bored mailroom clerk could have better-spent their "nothing better to do" hours in cleaning and tidying the office, rather than reading or hanging out?
One gets paid to do a job, and if the job is insuffient to occupy the hours one is paid to serve, surely one has the responsibility to report that to one's supervisor, and suggest that one's working hours be reduced?
1. *I* never made it a race issue. check out any US news report. scroll up in this thread. it's been made out to be a race issue from the very beginning. it's been made into a black-white issue when it shouldn't be. as for your little scenario, in a country like this one where EVERYTHING somehow turns into a race issue, YES, your case would become a race issue. this case has ignited so much hatred everywhere it's ridiculous. you've got the black racists calling for a race war. you've got the white racists begging for it. things are about to get really ugly here, so don't tell me this isn't a race issue.
2. hopefully? you're presuming guilt. you don't even know all of the facts of the case.
3. if you're threatened, you can shoot. self defense. let the courts sort the rest out.
4. no. this case could be a murder. it could be justifiable homicide. it could be manslaughter. in order for it to be a murder, he would have had to have acted out of malice. no prior intention would make it manslaughter. i'm not going to call it a murder until i know more.
just like i'm not going to call for this guy to spend the rest of his life in prison. i'm not joining the witch hunt. and if i'm wrong in giving this guy the benefit of the doubt for the time being, then i'm wrong. the things i've heard and seen dealing with this case haven't allowed me to make up my mind either way.
now you want to go here with me, silas?
during my "nothing to do" hours i literally had nothing to do. these hours were usually between the hours of 2pm-3pm, after my job duties were completed, before i had the next wave of work to do. you know, outbound mail collection, inspection and sorting for posting and all that crap. sure, i could have cleaned and tidied the office, but being that i wasn't a messy worker (because i knew how to throw paper into a garbage can) and being that i had two trustees around me all the time (since, you know, i worked in a prison) whose jobs it was to, you know, clean, that's really not a sensible option. i mean, these guys wouldn't let me lift a box.
did you miss the part where i said i would go talk to the warden? you know, my [I]supervisor[/I]? if he didn't have a problem with me going hang around in his office then why should you? also, i was a salary employee, not hourly, so your suggestion that i go have my hours reduced really wouldn't have mattered much. in fact, since i was salary and had this really cool "work-at-your-own-pace" gig, i could work 4 hours one day, 9 the next, 14 if i really wanted to. as long as the job got done, it didn't matter how long i was there for.
now, would you like to tell me how i should be doing my laundry, bathing my dog or cutting my grass? i'm open to suggestions from the almighty, all-knowing pinnacle of knowledge.
I never said YOU made it a race issue. I am bemused that it has become a race issue. I guess I just don't understand how things go in a racist country like yours.
(Australia is a racist country, but in no way like yours.)
The guy wasn't threatened, the victim was threatened ... and killed ... as you say, let the courts sort it out.
The USA has divided the crime of murder into all sorts of pigeonholes that most of the rest of the world cannot comprehend. To me, if'n you kill a human being, you've committed a murder. There is no benefit of doubt in his actions. He did it. The benefit of doubt applies only to his punishment.
I am sorry if I offended you Moxie Bravo. That was never my intention.
I had just finished writing a detailed reply to both your above posts, and then the electricity failed, and they were lost.
I have not the time to reconstruct my replies. But a succinct summary might be:
Differring cultures have differring defininitions of murder.
Differring cultures have different work ethics.
Every citizen is entitled to their own opinion.
We are all citizens of the world.
And my rebuttal posts are somehow miraculously restored! Thank You Jesus!
And now my response to the work ethic post has disappeared again.
Ah, sweet mystery of life!
[QUOTE=MoxieBravo;1052266]now you want to go here with me, silas?
during my "nothing to do" hours i literally had nothing to do. these hours were usually between the hours of 2pm-3pm, after my job duties were completed, before i had the next wave of work to do. you know, outbound mail collection, inspection and sorting for posting and all that crap. sure, i could have cleaned and tidied the office, but being that i wasn't a messy worker (because i knew how to throw paper into a garbage can) and being that i had two trustees around me all the time (since, you know, i worked in a prison) whose jobs it was to, you know, clean, that's really not a sensible option. i mean, these guys wouldn't let me lift a box.
did you miss the part where i said i would go talk to the warden? you know, my [I]supervisor[/I]? if he didn't have a problem with me going hang around in his office then why should you? also, i was a salary employee, not hourly, so your suggestion that i go have my hours reduced really wouldn't have mattered much. in fact, since i was salary and had this really cool "work-at-your-own-pace" gig, i could work 4 hours one day, 9 the next, 14 if i really wanted to. as long as the job got done, it didn't matter how long i was there for.
now, would you like to tell me how i should be doing my laundry, bathing my dog or cutting my grass? i'm open to suggestions from the almighty, all-knowing pinnacle of knowledge.[/QUOTE]
I would very much like to leave this lie where it is, but I have to say:
If the USA economy [B]is[/B] going down the toilet as we are told that it is, perhaps it is because it allows workers to loaf on governemnt or company time.
I work in a bookshop. If things have gone so quiet that the only thing I have left to do is read, I log myself off for my reading time, and am therefore not paid for that time. My boss, when he makes up my pay, will usually note that I have kept the shop open for an hour or two, and not claimed payment for my time. He usually pays me halftime rates for those hours. And I usually put those dollars in the plate on Sunday, as they are unearned dollars. Different people have different work ethics.
+++ JMJ +++
[QUOTE=Silas Sydenham;1052277]I would very much like to leave this lie where it is, but I have to say:
If the USA economy [B]is[/B] going down the toilet as we are told that it is, perhaps it is because it allows workers to loaf on governemnt or company time.
I work in a bookshop. If things have gone so quiet that the only thing I have left to do is read, I log myself off for my reading time, and am therefore not paid for that time. My boss, when he makes up my pay, will usually note that I have kept the shop open for an hour or two, and not claimed payment for my time. He usually pays me halftime rates for those hours. And I usually put those dollars in the plate on Sunday, as they are unearned dollars. Different people have different work ethics.[/QUOTE]
that's great that you've got this amazing work ethic, but don't insult mine.
i'm going to say this one last time. i was a salary employee. i didn't mooch off of the government time. i was paid to be there no matter if i was there for 50 hours a week or 35. that was my set pay which was agreed upon by myself and my employer, the state of louisiana. i was paid to do a job. i used my own gas to run back and forth between said place of employment and the post office so i could get my job done faster. some days i would finish quicker than others. sometimes i would do other things around there, like transcribing CID interviews, filing paperwork in the records office, or sort and pass out commissary (which i would stay until 7pm to do when i did do it, thank you very much). if no one else needed my services, i had an hour to just sit there with nothing to do while waiting for the afternoon mail collection time. so if i felt like picking up a damn book, i read. if i felt like going run my mouth with the people up in the warden's office, i did. if i felt like going hang around the records office, i did. if i wanted to go hang out in the intake area, i did. if i wanted to go up in the visitation area, i did. if i wanted to yap with the trustees, i did. i'm sorry if it bothers you that i got paid to do that. i worked at my own pace. yeah, if i had an 9-5 job where i was paid hourly, yeah - i'd have clocked off and taken my lunch break when i knew i was going to have my down time. but i didn't have a 9-5 job. i had a whenever to whenever job. as long as the mail got passed out by 2pm and as long as the mail was collected by 3pm no one cared when i got there, when i left or what i did when i was there. i did the job i was paid to do. (and the pay wasn't enough to bankrupt the country.)
Again, I did not wish to insult, nor to denigrate.
It seems like working situations and ethics in our two countries are very different.
We would call your former job [I]Stipendiary[/I], rather than [I]Salaried[/I].
In Australia, mostofthetime, if you leave your allocated work space for more than a call of nature, you will be instantly dismissed.
In my current job, I am monitored by CCTV all of the time. I have worked out a way to have an off-camera smoke, but otherwise, I have to be busy all the time, or clock myself off.
Our different parts of the world are different, is all. (But I cannot help but say: our economy is booming.)
MoxieBravo and Silas Sydenham:
2 Jack Russell Terrier dogs vs. Sprinklers , fighting - YouTube
well silas you will recieve a special place in heaven thats for sure :) but lets face it this young man didnt die because you get watched on CCTV at work or because Moxie had a brilliant job...
This [B]child[/B] died because the USA has inadequate gun laws.
And the last thing I want is a 'special place in heaven'. I'll be out there, playing football with my mates.
[QUOTE=Silas Sydenham;1052281]Again, I did not wish to insult, nor to denigrate.
It seems like working situations and ethics in our two countries are very different.
We would call your former job [I]Stipendiary[/I], rather than [I]Salaried[/I].
In Australia, mostofthetime, if you leave your allocated work space for more than a call of nature, you will be instantly dismissed.
In my current job, I am monitored by CCTV all of the time. I have worked out a way to have an off-camera smoke, but otherwise, I have to be busy all the time, or clock myself off.
Our different parts of the world are different, is all. (But I cannot help but say: our economy is booming.)[/QUOTE]
you may not wish to insult but you sure are doing a good job at doing so!
salaried, stipendiary - whatever. same thing. doesn't change the fact that i was paid one lump some no matter how many hours a week i worked. and i hardly think that the US economy is in the toilet because i was a salaried/stipendiary employee. i was on camera all the time at my old job too. how cool is that? i couldn't walk into a bathroom without someone knowing that i was walking into the bathroom.
you know, you're over there talking about american work ethic, but do you even realize that the american worker is the most overworked in the world? did you know that we're the only country in the world without paid parental leave? if we have children, the only way we get paid is if we accrue sick time and the only way our job is protected is if we're eligible for medical leave. did you know that there is not a set limit on how many hours a person can be made to work in this country? did you know that 70-85% of americans work more than 40 hours a week? did you know that we work something like 500 hours more a year than the french? somewhere around 300 hours more a year than the british? did you know that we only get paid vacation time off if the company we work for wants to give it to us? (yes - vacation time is a BENEFIT, not a requirement.) in every other country (except for canada i think) workers get at least 20 paid days off of work a year (some get even more) while us lazy, work-ethicless americans average 10. did you know that work-related stress is the #1 health issue in this country? did you know that we have a lower quality of life than most other industrialized countries because we work too damn much? every other industrialized country has laws that protect the worker - WE DO NOT. so take this "our work ethic is better than yours as proven by our awesome economy" crap and shove it. we work our butts off over here more than you do. and don't even come at me with this "fight for better labor laws" crap that i'm sure you're thinking over in your head. that doesn't work. it's tried over and over again and the american worker is crapped on over and over again.
try again, silas.
double.
Silas you missing my point Moxies job and your job has nothing to do with this topic at hand...
i'm sorry i went all ranty in this thread (even though i was totally provoked :p ) .... back on topic now?
for anyone who may be interested in the entire legal process:
What's next for George Zimmerman?